What Muslims Want

[Alex Berry]

Blimey! Do you three kids go to the same school?
J. Preston:
I said, " Immigration policy allows greater opportunity for crime."
Your reply; " So don't let them in....hense no crime?"
No. I would stop immigration until we are in better control of assessing who arrives. Immigration POLICY aids crime because it currently opens our borders without having an effective system in place to intercept criminals.
Employers don't ignore minimum wage? Erm...they can and do. As with immigration itself Labour has no decent system to monitor it. ( Apart from poverty stricken, scared legal and illegal immigrant informers. )
Mass immigration helped Americans and Australians? Which Americans and Australians? (Do I have to point out the irony in that statement?) And "technically" immigrant means "one who settles in another country." Implying to a settled area. When we left Ethiopia we weren't going back-packing around Europe.
Direthex:
Celebrate all faiths. They are the only remotely decent things around. But if your religion and/or laws conflict with that of another countrys, then respect them and don't go there. If they are free to print cartoons you may feel duty bound to react violently against ( or anything, inocuous or not ) then stay away. Your less likely to put yourself or them in danger and upset if you choose a more suitable country.

So you would tell that Polish mother who is unable to find a plumber, " These things happen?" "I've suffered to!"
Will you also say that when she can't find an electrician, nurse, doctor, dentist...
You say, if a gap appears in their market because a "few" plumbers go elsewhere then someone else just steps in to fill it? Then why can't we? Something to do with money perhaps..? You would rather play with their lives than address our own problems.

I like the percentage breakdown. Keep going though. Three countries make up the subcontinent. And the Jamaicans and Africans are different. So unless your saying they're all the same....Not so practical now, is it?

Ha! A twenty-two year old calls me "boy!" Thanks!
Though suffice to say I was reading, writing and understanding my country when you were merely full of ****. ( By that I mean you were still in nappies.)

Tony McNulty; " These are economically productive individuals....significant contributions.."
Yes. I've seen them massed together on the streets making their "significant contributions."
They are hoping a truck will pick them up and pay them a few quid for a seventeen hour day, ( 75% of all Eastern Europeans do menial work. )

Still a skills shortage? Let's ask the Poles how they fill their electrician, plumber, nurse, doctor, dentist....Now we have so many.

You seem to be saying allow anybody in irrespective of how they will be used. I told you, everyone must be assessed before entering Britian. And more to confirm they have not been threatened or tricked into being abused by " Anglo-Saxon " bastards. Immigration policy fails to do that. The system is currently overwhelmed.
Out of 25,700 asylum seekers last year 24,000 were told to " bog off ?" ( No bias there. )
Did they leave? And why were they told to? Oh yes, of course. Because we are racist.

The correct solution to war zones and environmental/economic hardships in other countries is not to take their best people and a few workers (in terms of their populations) and screw the rest as you seem to think. It is as much a focus on our economic sacrifice as anything. And sacrifice I would. For both my country and theirs.
Racist to you I suppose?
Nichomach:
Multiculture strengthens a country's economy and usually helps international relations up to a point. It doesn't aid domestic harmony, unity, or peace. Both we and America are powerful economically. Our and their social climates are harsh if you have no money. It now defines your worth both here and there. Kindness is still in people hearts. Just no longer in their consciousness.
That only comes with affinity and unity. Ones neighbours are strangers. And it is often merely wished so, not imposed.

What's this? Directhex implies that Yorkshiremen are lazy thieves. I say that i'd rather not have my country responsible for any possible hardships to Polish women, and I STILL get the blame?!

Re: Positive Discrimination. You say Cameron asked! You still think political leaders ask!

I didn't raise the subject of Empire sweetheart, you did. I just pointed out the difference between a "gift" and a commodity. And the argument was basically over the definition of the word " knowing " in the context of the past. No one has been "called on" in any specifics.
P.S. God forbid you should be redundant on anything!
P.P.S. Your first correspondence mentioned something about my going to a "meaningless little rock" so you could "happily ignore" me. Well, we are all on a meaningless little rock, and this is the third time you've ignored me.
( I expect your customary witty and insulting response please )

[charleski]

We're erecting barbed wire and machine guns at the border with Yorkshire - damned pie-thieves, coming over here and taking our bakery goods! We'll show 'em!

I worked in Grimsby for a while, you should hear them talk about all the Yorkies coming down to Cleethorpes to make trouble! (problem is, they bring their money too )

[nichomach]

Blimey! Do you three kids go to the same school?

I think we can spot who's stuck in schoolboy mode...although directhex, JPreston and myself appear to have paid more attention in lessons .
I'll let J. Preston and directhex deal with the juvenilia relevant to their posts; frankly, your descent into near-incoherence isn't helping your case.

Multiculture strengthens a country's economy and usually helps international relations up to a point. It doesn't aid domestic harmony, unity, or peace.

Actually, it does all of the above; mutual respect for customs and beliefs is a heck of a lot better than the alternative, unless you wish to go down the road of forcing everyone to conform to your rather meaningless and outdated idea of what it means to be British.

Both we and America are powerful economically. Our and their social climates are harsh if you have no money. It now defines your worth both here and there. Kindness is still in people hearts. Just no longer in their consciousness. That only comes with affinity and unity. Ones neighbours are strangers. And it is often merely wished so, not imposed.

Ah! Affinity and unity; a slogan fit to stand alongside "strength Through Joy", or "Arbeit Macht Frei". Of course, the idea that greater understanding of each other removes the desire for one's neighbours to be strangers would be alien to you.

What's this? Directhex implies that Yorkshiremen are lazy thieves. I say that i'd rather not have my country responsible for any possible hardships to Polish women, and I STILL get the blame?!

No; you stated that you would give work to a non-immigrant rather than an immigrant purely on the basis of ethnicity, disregarding skill, experience or integrity. That's racism, pure and simple. The denial of opportunity to someone on the basis of their ethnicity.

Re: Positive Discrimination. You say Cameron asked! You still think political leaders ask!

OK, name the constituency that has had an ethnic minority Tory candidate forced upon it. Ooops...there isn't one.

I didn't raise the subject of Empire sweetheart, you did. I just pointed out the difference between a "gift" and a commodity. And the argument was basically over the definition of the word " knowing " in the context of the past. No one has been "called on" in any specifics.

Actually, in your first post in this thread, you said:

No foreign culture has given anything to England. They have simply been paid for trade.

I pointed out that your assertion was erroneous, since although little "giving" was involved, Britain had been involved in a LOT of taking with regard to the trade in slaves, drugs, cash crops. I didn't introduce the word "Empire"; you did. I merely pointed out that your view of our history was a highly selected and rose-tinted one, giving specific examples. So yes, you have been called, and on specifics. Your response was essentially "that's the bit of history that I don't like, so I'll either ignore it, or call it irrelevant". You could have achieved the same perceived effect by posting a gif of yourself with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears saying "lalalalala...I'm not LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISTENING!".

P.P.S. Your first correspondence mentioned something about my going to a "meaningless little rock" so you could "happily ignore" me. Well, we are all on a meaningless little rock, and this is the third time you've ignored me.

No-one's ignored you; JPreston, directhex and myself have responded to you at length pointing out exactly why you're talking nonsense. You just don't appear to like having that pointed out.
What IS clear is that you've only made 7 posts in these fora in total, and ALL were concerned with immigration and your desire to stop it. By all means, keep on with your party political broadcasts on behalf of UKIP, but what they're selling, we ain't buying, because we know that it's nonsensical garbage. You have a bee in your bonnet about immigration; fine, it's your bonnet, but it's a very diseased bee.

[directhex]

it's a very diseased bee.

probably flew in from africa. what's it ever done for England, i say?!

i feel a fantastic quote from a friend is in order:

<Guerin> directhex: Being English is finishing work at your Paris-based company, driving your german car to an irish pub for a belgian beer, then stopping on the way home for a turkish kebab before watching a pakistani newsreader talk about the USA, and complaining about how foreigners are ruining your country.

[nichomach]

probably flew in from africa. what's it ever done for England, i say?!

*snigger*

i feel a fantastic quote from a friend is in order:
<Guerin> directhex: Being English is finishing work at your Paris-based company, driving your german car to an irish pub for a belgian beer, then stopping on the way home for a turkish kebab before watching a pakistani newsreader talk about the USA, and complaining about how foreigners are ruining your country.

Absolutely! But if they all left, what would UKIP have to get so worked up about? On humanitarian grounds we should ensure that we get more - lack of purpose can lead to depression, anxiety, evn in some cases self-harm or worse. No; it's our DUTY to give the members of UKIP a means to feel worthwhile, valued members of an inclusive and multicultural society.

[directhex]

Blimey! Do you three kids go to the same school?

i've never met any of the other two you mention, and haven't been to school for quite a while, as you well know.

Direthex:
Celebrate all faiths. They are the only remotely decent things around. But if your religion and/or laws conflict with that of another countrys, then respect them and don't go there. If they are free to print cartoons you may feel duty bound to react violently against ( or anything, inocuous or not ) then stay away. Your less likely to put yourself or them in danger and upset if you choose a more suitable country.

the vast majority of british muslims weren't reacting violently to the cartoon fiasco. it's always a loud and irritating minority who get press coverage

So you would tell that Polish mother who is unable to find a plumber, " These things happen?" "I've suffered to!"
Will you also say that when she can't find an electrician, nurse, doctor, dentist...
You say, if a gap appears in their market because a "few" plumbers go elsewhere then someone else just steps in to fill it? Then why can't we? Something to do with money perhaps..? You would rather play with their lives than address our own problems.

play with lives? unemployment in poland is almost 20%! one in five people! there simply aren't jobs to be filled! if poland had an electrician/nurse/doctor/dentist shortage, then how is closing *our* borders going to help, when there are twenty three other EU countries with lower unemployment rates for them to try and work in? if poland is that concerned about brain drain (and polish officials don't expect a significant problem as most people leaving to work return after a short time) then it's *their* borders that need to be closed.

I like the percentage breakdown. Keep going though. Three countries make up the subcontinent. And the Jamaicans and Africans are different. So unless your saying they're all the same....Not so practical now, is it?

so what you're saying is "people from malawi and people from nigeria are different, so all politicians should be white men"? you're doing a fantastic job of ignoring the bloody obvious (and all the points i made) to serve your somewhat curious needs.

answer the question.

do you feel a second-generation female pakistani immigrant would serve *your* needs in parliament as well as a middle-aged middle-class white anglo-saxon? now ask the question in reverse, and apply to a fair percentage of the population. *that* is why "affirmative action" policies exist. and having been involved in hiring staff before, I can assure you that the best candidate is the one offered the job - "affirmative action" is meant to a) advertise jobs heavily to people who normally wouldn;t consider it and b) give a get-out clause in 50:50 choice situations

Ha! A twenty-two year old calls me "boy!" Thanks!
Though suffice to say I was reading, writing and understanding my country when you were merely full of ****. ( By that I mean you were still in nappies.)

woo, you're older than twenty two! have a cookie! you're *still* sidestepping the point as presented and *still* not more qualified than me to comment on the issue.

Tony McNulty; " These are economically productive individuals....significant contributions.."
Yes. I've seen them massed together on the streets making their "significant contributions."
They are hoping a truck will pick them up and pay them a few quid for a seventeen hour day, ( 75% of all Eastern Europeans do menial work. )

menial work is just the kind of work that large numbers of (native british) people don't want to get out of bed for. which is one of the things that leads to vacant jobs, which is one of the reasons the jobs are there to be taken by immigrant workers

Still a skills shortage? Let's ask the Poles how they fill their electrician, plumber, nurse, doctor, dentist....Now we have so many.

they don't. hence 18% unemployment, hence wanting to leave to find a job elsewhere in europe.

You seem to be saying allow anybody in irrespective of how they will be used. I told you, everyone must be assessed before entering Britian. And more to confirm they have not been threatened or tricked into being abused by " Anglo-Saxon " bastards. Immigration policy fails to do that. The system is currently overwhelmed.

assessed for what? "it says 'ere that you're registering for work as a care worker?" "da!" "liar!" ""

which system is meant to be stretched here? education? those 600,000 workers brought 36,000 children with them, so over two years that's adding about 18,000 a year to a UK population of 14,800,000 kids (0.12% increase in child population, or 0.036 children per classroom).

Out of 25,700 asylum seekers last year 24,000 were told to " bog off ?" ( No bias there. )
Did they leave? And why were they told to? Oh yes, of course. Because we are racist.

they were told to because their asylum applications failed. their applications failed because the immigration services deemed that their cases did not warrant asylum in the UK - for example, they travelled via another friendly country it would have been easier to settle in, or they come from a country where the govenment feels the risk of persecution doesn't warrant the asylum application.

that's how the system is meant to work. as to whether they all actually left as ordered? that's an issue for the police. illegal immigrants (e.g. failed asylum seekers sneaking in rather than leaving) would happen regardless of any controls on immigrant workers.

The correct solution to war zones and environmental/economic hardships in other countries is not to take their best people and a few workers (in terms of their populations) and screw the rest as you seem to think. It is as much a focus on our economic sacrifice as anything. And sacrifice I would. For both my country and theirs.
Racist to you I suppose?

"no, stay where those shells are dropping, if we keep you all there then they might stop"?

What's this? Directhex implies that Yorkshiremen are lazy thieves. I say that i'd rather not have my country responsible for any possible hardships to Polish women, and I STILL get the blame?!

you seem terribly concerned about the plight of polish women. why not move to poland and work?

[360bhp]

I'm not as clever as some of you on here.. But my 2 pence..

Getting a bit bored of the "immigrant" card now. While other problems like the binge drinking (Which is related to 90% of all violent crime) is just swept under the carpet, coz ' it's a laugh ' - I don't even like walking round these parts at night anymore... Guranteed to encounter some piss head, who's after nothing but trouble.

Problems like little kids bunking off school, even though they are handed a free education on a plate.. What some children from 3rd world countries dream of.. Get no qualifications, go on the dole, start breeding they're own set of useless chavs... Blame the immigrants I say!?

As for the BNP... At the end of the day, we all know they are racist thugs in suits. Most of them no clue about politics, they would rather have a riot at a footy match somewhere.

[JPreston]

...I would stop immigration until we are in better control of assessing who arrives. Immigration POLICY aids crime because it currently opens our borders without having an effective system in place to intercept criminals.

Most criminals in the UK are not immigrants, so you'd be wasting your own and everybody's time by trying to 'intercept criminals' ( ) at the borders.

Employers don't ignore minimum wage? Erm...they can

Erm...they can't? Because otherwise they would be breaking the law? You know, that thing that people in Brussels force on us to protect immigrants at the expense of the glorious English race?

In all your incoherent ramblings you are just trying to combine the separate issues of crime, asylum, illegal immigration and economic migration in order to justify your own prejudices and childish 'solution'. Before you quote the rest of today's Daily Mail at me can I please interrupt and say that no, I won't be voting for UKIP as you suggest ( ), thank you very much.

[kasavien]

This thread's gone a bit off topic, so please bring it back to the topic of the thread for any further posts "what muslims want", there is a thread for immigration also in questiontime.

[Taz]

As a British Muslim, here's my &#163;0.02 worth.

I travel by plane every week for my job and I crap myself thinking that my aircraft may be the target of a terrorist attack. I get hassled by immigration staff and security staff very regularly. It pisses me off no end but I have to be pragmatic, bite my lip, and appreciate that they are doing their job.

What I have noticed in the last few weeks is cabin crew and passengers giving me funny looks. That upsets me a great deal: knowing that people might actually be frightened of me when I board an aircraft and resent me just because of the way I look (which is as a completely Westernised Muslim man). I honestly couldn't hurt a fly and, despite having a chronic dislike for Bush and Blair and the US and UK's foreign policy, I would be first in the queue to condemn violence of any kind. However, I don't feel obliged to condemn terrorist acts committed by terrorists. They are nothing whatsover to do with me and I abhor those acts as much as I abhor cluster bombs falling on innocent people halfway around the world.

As for the rubbish you see and hear on the media about 'Muslim leaders' spouting utter crap, let me reassure you about a couple of things. I probably know more Muslims than most people on here. Neither myself nor any Muslim that I personally know has ever heard of any of the Muslim leaders that are wheeled out in front of the BBC or Sky News. I am embarrassed to hear their views and cringe every time they claim to speak on behalf of Muslims. They do not speak on my behalf whatsoever.

[charleski]

As a British Muslim, here's my £0.02 worth.

I travel by plane every week for my job and I crap myself thinking that my aircraft may be the target of a terrorist attack. I get hassled by immigration staff and security staff very regularly. It pisses me off no end but I have to be pragmatic, bite my lip, and appreciate that they are doing their job.

Well I generally think of myself as being proud to be British. But the incident where 2 completely inncocent young men were forced off a plane in Malaga simply because they talked foreign and looked at their watches made me utterly ashamed of this country. (I'm also ashamed of the complicity in the Iraq shambles, but that's the fault of a small elite, whereas this was 'ordinary' people being kneejerk racists.)

Unfortunately there is a need to oppose the faults in our communities, whichever side they come from. I have to say this, I've lived in Walthamstow for 16 years and have the greatest respect for my neighbours, but when I heard nothing but 'They're such good boys, they must be innocent' coming from Walthamstow councillors recently it just made me sick. There's a problem here and it needs to be fixed.

[nichomach]

I'd agree with all of that, but I guess no-one wants to think that their neighbours, the people they've known for years COULD be guilty. On the travel thing, one of our local MEPs is pretty hacked off because he's getting stopped and given the third degree every time he travels to or from the European Parliament while his white colleagues get waved through. On one occasion recently, coming back to the UK, the guy working immigration - without even checking his passport - asked whether he intended to claim asylum! That's just wrong.

[ponders]

charleski, i dont want to tell you how to feel ( and i'm not) but from i read, the guys on the plane where taking advantage of the fear atmosphere on the plane of passengers and hostesses, they thought it was a joke and decided conciously to act and behave in such a way that they couild intimidate people around them. on top of this, they didn't have any hand luggage NOR bags. Now i've met and unfortnatly known people who really dont care for the wellfare of others albiet kids or oldies, sort of 'lads' revel in attention. i rekon those guys got exactly what they deserved.

But i will say, hearing your concern about community well being is very reassuring, as an Indian i have noticed a concious change in peoples bahaviour, although most of time i think it was just that ' oh crap this is uncomfertable' vibe, and not ' brown skin = al queda' . its good to know that this country isn't so easily lead.
what grates my goat cheese is pop stars and movies stars who supposedly are meant to be role models, and get away with murder ( literally). the sad fact is the TV is the source of how to grow up,

[jharne]

I thought what the Fundamentalist wanted was quite clear. For us to stop killing Muslims and for the americans to get out of the arabian peninsular.

[ponders]

what if all they really want...is a hug !!