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Aha! A Pastafarian!
*slaps head*Originally Posted by G4Z
Aha, yeah, I should read things properly before posting them shouldn't i?
*edits post*
*whistles innocently*
what?
Last edited by Mike Fishcake; 21-08-2006 at 07:48 PM.
Oh dear, you are reactionary aren't you? I'll make it more simple:
1. Varied race, culture, religion, colour, ect...in Britian is not important until you add the emotive element: numbers. There is a reason we live in countries and not one big multicultural world. People want a homeland, not a country composed of "states".
2. It is not about what our foreign policy is. It is about how and why it changes. It should change as a national consensus (relatively speaking). However foreign policy naturally effects our relationships with other countries. Perhaps two countries at war who have minorities here. Do you think the policy would not be influenced by a government near election time looking at demographics? And not just foreign policy either.
3. Getting more of their people into power is a reference to positive discrimination. I do not blame nor think wrong any minorities wishes to want this. It is, after all, ultimately how they become safe and prosperous. It is not, however, a unifying national policy.
4. Ah yes. That old chestnut Empire. The sins of the fathers. At a time we will never understand, in a world we will never know, in a social and physical environment long since dead and buried, we choose to denigrate and insult our forebears whilst blithely enjoying what they created and died for. What luxury!
Empires throughout the ages... I know! Let's help the Hundus kick the crap out of those damn Mongolians for that Mogul thing. Then we'll get those bloody Italians. Straight roads!..who the hell do they think they are!
5. Guns, drugs, and people trafficked. It's a world problem. Your solution? Do nothing. Oh, apart from mention the Opium Wars ( Empire again, huh? )
There is no disputing our inability to properly monitor our borders. By all means I would harshly punish those "white men" who abuse trafficked women But we were talking about immigration and it's contribution to the horror as is.
6. Racist? Me? If anything i'm misanthropic. That's better isn't it! And I call for a stop to immigration by alinement with the only non-racist party that will do so because immigration causes suffering. I work with immigrants and minorities and I talk to them. I do not call for their removal, and I don't vote B.N.P. Though I believe some minorities did.
Finally my views are based on current affairs, not on historical who owes whom's. And in stopping immigration I would also halt the practice of taking the worlds most essential health workers from the countries they are most needed.
P.S. 7.5 million of us still want to leave, and in discussions regarding the state of the nation, THAT trumps all.
I wouldnt say they are extreme christian groups , just happy clappy types round greys monument
actually, this is due to something called "continental drift". see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_drift and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaea
national consensus is largely ignored by governments, largely because individuals are stupid. they're fantastic at saying "we should do foo", until someone points out how that will **** them personally. whenever i hear people come up with wide-reaching plans to solve all of society's ills, i find it quite sad that i have to explicitly point out the logic holes so big you could fit a bus through them2. It is not about what our foreign policy is. It is about how and why it changes. It should change as a national consensus (relatively speaking). However foreign policy naturally effects our relationships with other countries. Perhaps two countries at war who have minorities here. Do you think the policy would not be influenced by a government near election time looking at demographics? And not just foreign policy either.
who would you rather hire to do a skilled manual labour job like fix a boiler - the guy from yorkshire who skips two appointments and charges you £200 to tighten a screw, or the guy from krakow who doesn't speak great english, but is there on time & gone in ten minutes?
i don't see how it's positive discrimination for a segment of the population to want more of their own to represent their interests. it ends up fairly backwards when you look at a mostly-non-white area like bethnal green run by a fat stupid white man.3. Getting more of their people into power is a reference to positive discrimination. I do not blame nor think wrong any minorities wishes to want this. It is, after all, ultimately how they become safe and prosperous. It is not, however, a unifying national policy.
if i was enjoying what they created, then i'd be whipping my servants whilst sipping tea in calcutta4. Ah yes. That old chestnut Empire. The sins of the fathers. At a time we will never understand, in a world we will never know, in a social and physical environment long since dead and buried, we choose to denigrate and insult our forebears whilst blithely enjoying what they created and died for. What luxury!
Empires throughout the ages... I know! Let's help the Hundus kick the crap out of those damn Mongolians for that Mogul thing. Then we'll get those bloody Italians. Straight roads!..who the hell do they think they are!
so by banning polish plumbers from the country, you prevent guns and drugs from entering? there are no anglo-saxon criminals?5. Guns, drugs, and people trafficked. It's a world problem. Your solution? Do nothing. Oh, apart from mention the Opium Wars ( Empire again, huh? )
There is no disputing our inability to properly monitor our borders. By all means I would harshly punish those "white men" who abuse trafficked women But we were talking about immigration and it's contribution to the horror as is.
calling for a stop to immigration shows a massive misunderstanding of how a country's economy functions. the UKIP have absolutely no substance except "lock your doors, the darkies are coming!", which of course is an enormous change to "get your pitchforks, the darkies are coming". i have no respect for either of them or anyone who thinks they have anything to talk but faecal matter6. Racist? Me? If anything i'm misanthropic. That's better isn't it! And I call for a stop to immigration by alinement with the only non-racist party that will do so because immigration causes suffering. I work with immigrants and minorities and I talk to them. I do not call for their removal, and I don't vote B.N.P. Though I believe some minorities did.
populations have moved about since the advent of affordable travel. that's not new or exciting. considering how much of the media these days is dedicated to telling you how much life is better abroad, or how easy it is to start a new life in paradise, i'm not surprised people say they want to leave. would i leave? sure, if a better job offer comes along in another country that made it worth my while. but certainly not because "immigration causes suffering" or other such unsubstantiated bollocks. and of those 7.5M you quote, how many do you think would actually move, rather than the usual british moan-about-everything-but-dont-act attitudes?Finally my views are based on current affairs, not on historical who owes whom's. And in stopping immigration I would also halt the practice of taking the worlds most essential health workers from the countries they are most needed.
P.S. 7.5 million of us still want to leave, and in discussions regarding the state of the nation, THAT trumps all.
sorry, but the rampant idiocy of the insular white populace frankly frightens me at times
Well, personally I see anybody trying to spread "faith" and ludicrus ideas that go against everything science has taught us and I see them as extreme. To actively push this stuff on to people in the street is extreme, and the sad thing is the blind fools do not even realise whos agenda it is they are pushing (certainly not thier own or thier deities). I heard one guy stand up and say all of the other religions figures were dead and only jesus was alive, clearly he has not considered that the holy meatballs are alive and well, and dont forget you cant prove me wrong on that.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
Personally, I think there's nothing more amusing than seeing a right-wing zealot appropriate the language of the Left because of the paucity of their own.
The LAST thing I'd demand of you is complexity...
The key word there being "emotive"; as in "emotive appeal to paranoia"
The very definition of our world is "multicultural"; indeed it's in insular countries that constrict interaction with the rest of the world that extremism and hatred flourish. I can see the billboards now: "Little England: Twinned with North Korea"
Do you really think that there is a national consensus over Iraq? Or that there ever was? Our foreign policy was set by Washington, and the idea that this nebulous "national consensus" was involved anywhere in the process is frankly laughable.
Or by energy companies, or the "special relationship", or the balance of payments or any number of different factors. However, if you intend to rely upon the electoral significance of demographics, then you've already fatally wounded your own argument; minorities are by definition less significant than majorities at elections, because they are minorities. That is to say, their influence is proportionately less than that of the majority population. If they had the influence that you ascribe to them, what are we doing in Iraq now, eh?
Yet the only example you can come up with is the extraordinarily atypical example of a borough with a majority population drawn from the non-white population, and they STILL returned a fat white guy to the Commons, in preference to candidates drawn from ethnic minorities. This isn't looking good for you so far...
Actually, the process of decolonisation continued well into the 1960s; we're talking 40 years ago, not 4,000. And our activities during the colonial period are actually very well documented. Not in hieroglyphics, but in that simple English for which you profess such fondness.
Actually, it was generally the colonised and enslaved that did most of the dying, and that dying continued well into the 1970s and beyond (for instance, the over-protracted reign of white supremacists like Ian Smith in Rhodesia, a British colony).
Actually, I don't believe in doing nothing; I believe in working closely with our allies in Europe and beyond to close down people-traffickers and drug smugglers; but conflating the scum who traffic in human slaves with immigration is simply perverted and evil; but then that's the approach the ultra-right always take. Pick a target and try to associate them with some vilified activity. Then when the public swallow that, you can do whatever you like to them.
Immigration has NOTHING to do with people trafficking; the one is the voluntary (if sometimes illegal) migration of people from one country to another. The other, the forcible abduction or selling into slavery of people INVOLUNTARILY transported to another country to be abused for the gratification of the indigenous population. Once again, you attempt to conflate immigrants with criminals; stigmatisation to justify discrimination.
Absolutely; it's so much easier to enjoy one's lofty perch of moral superiority if you hold your nose against the dunghill it's been erected on.
Which, assuming that your statistic is even remotely accurate (unsourced as it is), leaves about 51 million who don't want to which pretty much trumps THAT. That would be a majority of about 87%, by the way. Does that qualify as a national consensus, or does that word only apply to opinions that you agree with?
Last edited by nichomach; 22-08-2006 at 12:09 AM.
Dave Cameron wants to base candidate selection on race and sex. All partys do. So much for the best person for the job.
However, it is a wise policy. Who didn't know that you are more likely to vote for someone who represents your identity. ( And by identity I don't mean the meaningless term British )
Don't suppose it matters. I mean, they're only going to run the country. Who knows, maybe when all these "representatives" are in power together they will be able to overcome their natural bias towards their own people ( encluding the dreaded white male politicians ) and all be united in their theft and greed created by mass cheap ( £3.00 an hour ) labour.
We can only hope!
Wecolme to the maddness of multiculture.
i'm trying & failing to parse this.
are you saying "becuase of the damned darkies, we have a minimum wage"?
"because of the damned darkies, we have a tory government"?
i'm lost
I have to say, this thread contains some of the most idiotic racist rubbish i've heard in ages - i'm ashamed by what some of you are posting here. How on earth can people be so stupidly xenophobic in 2006? I mean, what's going on - are some of you going to some kind of natzi indoctrination camp as teenagers?
Some of us have a lot to learn about each other and the World at large. I just hope some of you can remove that chip on your shoulder long enough to see it for yourselves.
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
i had a brilliant idea!
why stop at closing britain's borders? i don't want any scummy northerners messing up things down south - why not erect barbed-wire fences between counties? it'd help stop suffering
We're erecting barbed wire and machine guns at the border with Yorkshire - damned pie-thieves, coming over here and taking our bakery goods! We'll show 'em!
Still confused I see. And upset! O.K. I'll try again:
1. "A homeland not a country of "states" ". A country with growing communities, seperate from each other in religion and culture, is inherently disunifying. And if saying that makes me racist then so are those Jamaican and Asian rioters in Birmingham. The truth is though, nobody is. It is simply a truth you refuse to hear.
And interaction with the rest of the world is exactly what I want. Not mass movements of desperate peoples in ANY direction.
2. Who would I rather hire to fix my boiler, "a guy frow Yorkshire who skips two appointments and charges £200 to tighten a screw, or a guy from Krakow...there on time, gone in ten minutes?" Two suggestions:
a) Go to Yorkshire and shout that out in a pub.
b) Go to Krakow and explain to a mother of two young children why she can't get her
boiler fixed in winter.
I would hire the Yorkshireman. If you have had problems with them maybe they just don't like your attitude. Maybe they think you make racist generalizations?
3. Positive discrimination. Cameron recently demanded candidates based on race and colour to be fielded. Is he saying people don't feel they are as well represented if a person is not of their culture? Are they more likely to vote for a person of their race? Surely not!
What is the correct racial/sex balance by the way? A genius like you must know. ( Ah well, let's just hope after all this juggling they know how to run a country as well.)
4. Empire. So you can read. So what? Fifty years or five hundered years ago. The last days were seeped in past generations ideology. You would have had to have known nothing but Empire to understand it.
5. Crime and Immigration. Not being able to properly monitor borders facilitates crime. Anglo-Saxon crime as well. Immigration policy allows greater opportunity for all criminals including domestic ones. NOT immigrants who are more likely to be victims. THAT is my point.
6. Stopping immigration means we can sort out our own and their safety. That is more important than employers being able to ignore minimum wage and pay £3.00 an hour to a desperate Eastern European.
Simply put, mass immigration ANYWHERE at ANYTIME in history benefits no one for long. And unmonitorable borders are dangerous.
7. Two hundred million desperate people left their countries last year. And you put it down to affordable travel? It is a consequence of your "screw the world, our economy comes first" attitude.
P.S. All the statistics I use come from media. Though only if four or more seperate independant sources concur.
You're really going to have to start making some sense soon, or else under EU regulations you will have to surrender your hexus ID to a Polish builder with at least a rudimentary grasp of English and the capacity for rational thought.
I was able to get into the swing of that post by about point 5 and decipher it to some extent.
So, don't let them in in the first place and then they won't be victims of crime, hence no crime?
Erm...they can't ignore minimum wage (which incidentally we only have thanks to the current government). "Sort out our own and their safety" -
Well except for Americans, Australians and technically the entire human race, which evolved somewhere round Ethiopia. And certainly the UK is currently benefitting too even if small-minded racists don't understand why.
so we should be unifying different groups.
we have a high muslim population in this supposedly secular country - should we celebrate Eid ul-Fitr as well as Christmas? or ban both? make your choice - the third option (force everyone down a Christan path) is exactly why non-white-christan groups feel under threat, and close themselves into tight groups
i'd go to yorkshire & shout it in a pub, but i wouldn't want to try and go there. i might bring crime and suffering with me!2. Who would I rather hire to fix my boiler, "a guy frow Yorkshire who skips two appointments and charges £200 to tighten a screw, or a guy from Krakow...there on time, gone in ten minutes?" Two suggestions:
a) Go to Yorkshire and shout that out in a pub.
b) Go to Krakow and explain to a mother of two young children why she can't get her
boiler fixed in winter.
I would hire the Yorkshireman. If you have had problems with them maybe they just don't like your attitude. Maybe they think you make racist generalizations?
as for option "b", my boiler packed up last winter, and i would have given a limb for a plumber - times of extreme demand such as plumbers in winter *happen*, regardless of where you are. half of poland isn't going to freeze because of it.
the "correct" balance, reflecting the UK population:3. Positive discrimination. Cameron recently demanded candidates based on race and colour to be fielded. Is he saying people don't feel they are as well represented if a person is not of their culture? Are they more likely to vote for a person of their race? Surely not!
What is the correct racial/sex balance by the way? A genius like you must know. ( Ah well, let's just hope after all this juggling they know how to run a country as well.)
85.5% white british
3.8% white other
4.4% indian subcontinent
2.2% black
4.1% "other" e.g. chinese, mixed race
of all the above, about 51% should be women. the actual breakdown in parliament is 19.5% women; 2.3% non-white (where it should be 10.7%)
as someone who describes themselves as white british, would you feel happy with parliament being made up of only a fifth as many white british people as the overall population (i.e. only 17.5% of parliament were white)? of course not. you feel you need someone "like you" to represent you, and that's precisely what members of parliament are supposed to do - represent their constituents. do you think a second-generation bangladeshi immigrant would relfect *your* interests as well as a n'th generation middle-aged white man?
i'm in a far better position to comment on the empire than you, boy. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_indian4. Empire. So you can read. So what? Fifty years or five hundered years ago. The last days were seeped in past generations ideology. You would have had to have known nothing but Empire to understand it.
which bit of immigration policy encourages crime, precisely?5. Crime and Immigration. Not being able to properly monitor borders facilitates crime. Anglo-Saxon crime as well. Immigration policy allows greater opportunity for all criminals including domestic ones. NOT immigrants who are more likely to be victims. THAT is my point.
"These are economically productive individuals who are making significant contributions to our economy," [Home Office minister Tony McNulty] told BBC News 24.6. Stopping immigration means we can sort out our own and their safety. That is more important than employers being able to ignore minimum wage and pay £3.00 an hour to a desperate Eastern European.
Simply put, mass immigration ANYWHERE at ANYTIME in history benefits no one for long. And unmonitorable borders are dangerous.
what you seem to have suggested over your last two points is "anglo saxons are bastards, if you take away the immigrants then they won't be able to be, which stops crime" - since there would *STILL* be a skills shortage with your recession plan, why not target the criminals?
the solution to people who felt the need to leave their homes (most of whom will have been driven out by war and fear of their lives) would be better off staying put, because getting out of warzones creates suffering? staying in them creates dead bodies!7. Two hundred million desperate people left their countries last year. And you put it down to affordable travel? It is a consequence of your "screw the world, our economy comes first" attitude.
P.S. All the statistics I use come from media. Though only if four or more seperate independant sources concur.
of last year's immigration figures, about 600,000 came to work from EU countries; about 25,700 came from far & wide seeking asylum, and of those 25,700, about 24,000 were told to bog off back to where they came from
decide what you're targeting here. if you're bitching about migrant workers, then you're wrong - they're here because they are needed here, to fill jobs that would otherwise lay empty. if you're bitching about asylum seekers, then you're wrong - the majority would be suffering a hell of a lot more at home than here, which is why they're so desparate to come
oooOOOOOoooo...someone's in a snit...
A country with diverse communities all bringing different skills and awarenesses to the table is inherently strengthening. As to who is refusing to hear the truth...?
Migration has been going on as long as the human race has existed. Indeed our economy benefits from it all the time, as directhex has already effectively noted.
Personally, I'd take the guy who gets the job done quickly, punctually at a reasonable cost. So would everyone else I know.
Well, I live and work in Lancashire, but Yorkshire's not THAT different... If I were to shout that in a pub, I'd get some strange looks; more for shouting stuff about plumbers in the middle of a pub. However, if the subject came up in conversation (and it has before now) the essential practicality of Yorkshiremen and Lancastrians would cause them to agree that the guy who turns up, works hard, and charges an honest fee'll get the job every time, and they wouldn't give a toss if his name is Joe or Jerzy. Actually, I know that the company I work for employs some Eastern Europeans on sites, and that they get paid better here; money which they're happy to filter back to family in their country of origin.
This is what is technically known as "bollocks". Poland has an effective education system, and if a gap in the market appears because a few plumbers have gone to work elsewhere, someone else'll step up to fill it.
Oh, that's priceless; it's pretty obvious that directhex could have said "Kent" or "Norfolk". You're attempting to justify your refusal to give someone work purely based on their ethnicity - a racist practice - by pointing to someone who would give the work on the basis of skill and integrity, disregarding ethnicity, and calling them a racist. What a topsy-turvy little world you inhabit. Those of us in the more, ah, reality-based community can see very well which is which.
Cameron's actually asked for more people from ethnic minorities to stand for selection; he hasn't "demanded" anything. I see UKIP are still smarting a little over their racism being pointed out to them by him. While not a Tory, I actually applaud his willingness to stand up, and call a spade a spade regarding UKIP's racism; something that you've amply displayed here.
Well, this is meaningless crap. You made some unwarranted assertions regarding our history, got called on it and are now spouting a load of smoke to cover it. One can understand Empire very easily, however, by just reading the history. I'm unsurprised at your dismissal of that idea, however. You're happy to raise the subject, as long as no-one challenges your comfortable, rose-tinted view with the rather less pleasant truth. As soon as they do, you suddenly decide that it isn't relevant.
directhex has already dealt with this, but I'd also note the illogicality of stigmatising immigrants on the basis of crime committed by and on behalf of the indigenous population. He's also addressed very well issues of border control and migration, and it would be redundant for me to comment on that.
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