Hi Agent, I do understand their position, I just do not think they are handling this correctly.
It seems to me that in this case, it is impossible to say where the damage occurred. These are tiny, tiny pins and clearly very easy to bend. Such damage might occur anywhere along the chain. Quite apart from this, the bent pin may not even be responsible for the faulty behaviour of the board. This is where it becomes such a difficult area. Perhaps it is a matter then for the Small Claims court.
It's only outside the remit of the SoGA if Scan are right and, perhaps, can prove that they are. I asked a lawyer friend about this, and his reply, paraphrased, was "the issue isn't just whether the user damaged the goods, but whether there was an inherent fault at time of supply".Originally Posted by Agent
Consider this .... you buy a bottle of very good brandy, get it home, go to open the bottle and the bottle shatters, pouring £200 worth of brandy over your floor. Who is liable? Well, if the bottle had a manufacturing defect in the glass so that it was very weak, and shattered upon applying normal efforts to open it, the seller is. The fault was inherent, even though the buyer actually broke the bottle. If the buyer tried to open it with a club hammer, the buyer is. The issue, therefore, is not just whether there's user-damage or not, but whether the user damage caused the fault or the fault resulted in the user damage.
Complicating that is that there is a statutory presumption in the SoGA that, for six months, faults are the result inherent issues, unless the seller can prove otherwise. If there is damage to the motherboard, then it seems that either the board was damaged when it arrived at Scan from their supplier, or it was damaged by the user, or it was damaged by someone at Scan when it was sent back. Assuming there's no signs of damage by couriers, it would appear that there's no other possibilities.
So, were the problems the buyer had, initially, with the board the result of a bent pin? Who knows. Could he have got it working, albeit intermittently, or for a day after changng the battery, if a pin was bent? Again, I don't know.
Even if he did bend a pin, was that as a result of having to muck around with the board, because there was already a fault that caused the intermittent problems. Again, I don't know.
What I do know is :-
1) A warranty might well be voided by user damage, but the Sale of Goods Act isn't.
2) The Sale of Goods Act would not cover accidental damage caused by the user. That's what Scansure is for.
3) If there was already a fault, damage resulting from user actions don't invalidate an inherent fault.
4) If a customer and seller can't agree, or can't compromise, and have have made every reasonable effort to do so, well, that's what Small Claims Courts are for.
5) If it goes to court, the party that is "right" doesn't necessarily win. That applies whether Scan or the buyer are in the right.
Thanks a million Saracen and everyone else.. I need to think a little about what to do next. But, as a result of this forum, I feel a lot more informed.
What does occur to me is... although I can't prove that the board wasn't damaged when I got it, similarly, Scan can't prove it wasn't damaged when they sent it. And they are refusing to RMA on the basis that I MUST have damaged it. As there's no proof I did, this sounds like a case for the small claims court.
If CPU socket pin damage is so easy to inflict and voids all rights of replacement if not reported immediately, there needs to be a very clear notice on the motherboard stating this. And there was not.
Does anyone have any experience of using the small claims court?
BTW this matter comes under: RMA 203605
Scan, can you tell me exactly who to write to at your company in advance of going to the small claims court? I should try to see if we can settle this out of court first. But I do intend to fight. The more I've thought about it and explained what happened to other people, the more I believe I have a case. And the existence of Scansure does not make any difference.
I've now had to buy another motherboard (not from Scan) and so will be seeking a refund rather than a replacement.
Tobias,
Please feel to write into Scan, that way we can provide our final decision to you in writing.
In this case I would highlight the following, All motherboards are shipped with CPU pin protectors in place and industry test's prove that these protectors remove any possibility of damage during standard transit. No physical damage was ever reported by yourself on receipt, however, physical damage was immediately noted on receipt at Scan following a visual inspection and as such your warranty was rejected.
Taking into account the fact of the CPU protector and no damage being reported by yourself on receipt it can only be concluded that the item has been subjected to end user damage and this has invalidated the warranty.
Scansure does not make any difference to the warranty rejection, indeed even if you had scansure the warranty on the original item is still voided, the actual only difference is the insurance company provide a replacement.
You have to remember that the courts generally apportion blame and rule compensatory action accordingly. In this case you are not 100% in the right and even you can probably acknowledge that. Try to keep that in mind before waving the court flag around. You have to remember that PC assembly should be conducted by qualified and/or suitably skilled people. Sure, lots of people do it these days and it's fine when everything works but it can be a real pain (as you've witnessed) when things go wrong. Remember that you have freely admitted to not inspecting the socket for damage before assembly, something an experienced assembler would have done.
Remember that the people you explained it to are probably (a) Your friends and are thus implicitly supportive, (b) Only heard your side which may or may not be the full story (not saying you're intentionally being bias but that's human nature), and (c) Unlikely to be lawyers so what would they know? Looking at the responses on this thread it seems split already.
Hey guys if this is an inappropriate place to post this PLEASE feel free to remove it!!
I saw Wesleys statement regarding all motherboards being shipped with cpu pin protectors, well I have literally just received a Asus M4A78-E from scan without the aforementioned cpu protector also minus two of the supposed four sata cables, as its been so long since I built my last AMD system I'm not terribly sure whether this is correct or not?
Anyhow forgive me butting in, but I thought it appropriate to mention that in fact as I have seen not ALL boards are in fact shipped with this protection?
Best wishes
Mark.
Last edited by wesleyaldred; 16-06-2009 at 01:59 PM.
As a complete outsider I have to say I side with Scan here.
They have a very clear and open policy with regards reporting damaged goods.
You have openly admitted (as Bugbait points out) that you did not inspect the goods for damage upon receipt, yet when Scan received them from you, there was damage to the socket present.
I understand your frustration, i've had similar myself but ultimately they have procedures for reporting damage etc. and it is your responsibility to check that your goods are in good condition on arrival. Measures are taken (very effective measures by all accounts) by motherboard manufacturers to prevent pin damage in transit, so logically it would fall that the damage occurred from user error.
You state you did not check your goods thoroughly and so ultimately, even if the board was damaged when it got to you, the responsibility still falls at your feet.
I think in this case you will have to put it down to a lesson learned and in future be more thorough with such checks so that were this ever to occur again, you don't fall into the same trap. Personally I photograph stuff upon arrival/opening so I have some kind of reference.
I honestly think a court would see it the same way too.
AMD boards are still pins on CPU and holes in the motherboard aren't they? Intel boards have the pins on the motherboard and pads on the CPU now, so they have protectors on the motherboard to stop the pins getting bent. AMD boards won't have this as there are no pins to get bent.
Mossy (16-06-2009)
Thanks Divine!
As I stated its been an age since I built an AMD based system so couldn't remember if it shipped with the protector or not! Then reading Wesleys post made me wonder!
Could I request someone to remove these posts as they obviously add nothing to this debate and I wouldn't wish to complicate an obviously complicated matter any further!
Again thanks Divine! You put my mind to rest there!
Mark.
I think any customer will struggle when they did not report transit damage immediately. When I worked in retail, I was obviously suspicious of people who were reporting damage after time had passed since purchase.
Hi
AMD still use pins on the CPU's !!!, so they dont have pin protectors on the motherboard.
Thanks for that Wesley!!!
Completely my own fuddled misunderstanding!
Mark
Just trying to understand:
Did the OP receive the board with untampered seals intact on the mobo box and anti static bag?
Was there a socket protector present and fitted correctly at time of opening?
Was it returned to Scan with said socket protector fitted and was it received by Scan with this socket protector in place?
I'm the first to criticise Scan for shoddy customer service, but it seems to me that quite rightly, the OP doesn't have a hope here unless Wes starts playing the 'goodwill' card.
Goodwill on this occasion will cost Scan £200 (or whatever the cost price of the mobo) being as Asus have already said they would not process this mobo under warranty. I don't see why Scan should have to cough that up.
Indeed. Time for the OP to chalk this one up to experience and move on, I think.
This isn't the first time bent pins have been mentioned in dispatches here on Hexus. It's clearly something users need to move up their priority list when checking tackle that's just been delivered.
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