Asus Motherboard Blues

[Tobias]

OK, so I should move on and put this down to experience? Experience that should mean something like this won't happen again, right? Except there's every chance it will. The pin "damage" is barely visible to the naked eye - just a very slight colour variation. So even if I had made this inspection before starting construction, I might easily have missed it. I really wonder how many of you who build PCs can say you would have noticed it. And if it was me that damaged that pin, how did I do that? What exactly was the "user error" here? Is there a technique for CPU insertion that avoids pin damage (apart from careful alignment and gentle treatment - both of which were observed). The feeling I get is that people think I was a bit clumsy, that I know this and am trying it on. Well I can honestly say that isn't the case. I wouldn't do anything different if I attempted another build (apart from the microscopic inspection bit). And indeed I HAVE done another build. I just bought another mobo and observed EXACTLY the same i7 insertion procedure as before. And it works fine.

[Tobias]

Here's the picture (taken by Scan) of the pin damage.

[GoNz0]

the only way that pic could be bent is if it welded to the cpu, i had my 1st striker extreme snap 2 pins that i put down to being welded to the chip when removed, i was fortunate enough to have got it from ebuyer who had no objection to replacing the board.

i would get it back and see if you can bend it back with a pin tbh them rma it again. maybe to asus direct after explaining scan wont help you.

[Tobias]

Thanks for this info Gonzo..

So a pin can weld itself to a hot CPU and then get bent when the CPU is removed? That could well have happened here. And that suggests that my initial mobo problem had nothing to do with a bent pin, BUT in preparing the board for RMA, despite taking all due care, I accidentally damaged it and then, according to Scan, lost all my rights. This indeed is an issue for self-builders to be wary of: you might be the innocent recipient of a faulty product, but in assessing the fault and / or preparing the product for return, you may inflict damage which removes all your rights.

But as Saracen said in this thread:
3) If there was already a fault, damage resulting from user actions don't invalidate an inherent fault.

mmm...

[divinemadness]

Trouble is, if the damage (assuming it is unrelated for the sake of argument) prevents testing of the board to test said inherent fault which in this case i'm guessing it does (it isn't going to work with bent pins regardless) then whether it does or doesn't have an inherent fault ends up being neither here nor there as no one can prove it either way any more.

Trouble is, no one can ultimately prove they did or did not cause that damage. Scan have policies (very reasonable ones) for reporting visible damages, so the fact you never contacted them I would think gives them some defence. You have nothing tangible other than your word that you didn't do it.

This is exactly why I photograph things upon receipt and before sending stuff, the EXIF has embedded dates and times etc. and can go a long way to proving your innocence if you can photographically prove something was in X condition at Y time.

I suppose we could break it down as to where the damage could have occurred

At factory / in Scan's warehouse / during initial delivery - in the case the responsibility would be on to check the item and report the damage
During your possession - this can never really be proved unless you have a photo of it just before you sent it back
Getting sent back - again, you'd need the photo to prove it happened after leaving you
While Scan have it - as above, you'd need some kind of proof it wasn't you

That way, Scan would probably just replace and recoup the costs from the courier's insurance if they damaged it, or back to Asus or themselves. As it stands though, it could have happened anywhere and you have nothing other than words to say it wasn't you, Scan at least have the fact you never reported any damage, which whether you feel is fair or not, is much more likely to stand up in court if you took it that far.

Personally i'd be appealing to their better nature rather than threatening them with court action in such a position.

# You should note that our carrier requires immediate notice to be given of any loss or damage to goods and you should inspect the goods upon receipt and report any loss or damage to the carrier immediately.
# Insofar as you report any damage to goods to us within 48 hours of delivery we will refund the price and carriage or replace the goods at no cost to you.
# In respect of any damage to goods reported to us after 48 hours of delivery we shall require proof from you that the goods were damaged before receipt by you.

A copy of your invoice including product serial numbers has been
included. These must be verified upon receipt. Any discrepancies or
damage must be reported to Scan within 48 hours from the point of
receipt by logging a query through our online customer support page.

PLEASE NOTE: ALL GOODS HAVE BEEN INDIVIDUALLY VERIFIED AND SCANNED
BY YOUR ALLOCATED PACKER AS THEY WERE PLACED IN YOUR PACKAGE. AS WITH
THE PICKING PROCESS, OUR SYSTEM NOW REQUIRES VALID SERIAL NUMBERS TO
BE SCANNED BEFORE THE DESPATCH PROCESS CAN BE COMPLETED. THIS IS DONE
TO ENSURE ALL GOODS ARE PRESENT AND CORRECT AT THE POINT OF DESPATCH.
TO VIEW THE TIME AND DATE STAMP FOR EACH ITEM SCANNED PLEASE OPEN THE
ATTACHED TEXT FILE. ANY CLAIMS OF DAMAGE OR DISCREPANCY MUST BE
REPORTED TO SCAN WITHIN 48 HOURS FROM THE POINT OF RECIEPT.

Ultimately, you didn't adhere to this, which does you no favours when it comes to arguing the toss with them.

[Agent]

So a pin can weld itself to a hot CPU and then get bent when the CPU is removed?

No, it can't. It's absolute nonsense.

The heat required to "weld" the pins of a 775 socket the the CPU is very high and simply can not happen under a normal operating environment. The pins on the motherboard and pads on the CPU are a mixture of copper and gold.
Gold has a melting point of 1064.18 °C
Copper has a melting point of 1084.62 °C

Even assuming that the metals are not pure, you can see that the melting points needed to do any form of welding are very high.

[Saracen]

Trouble is, if the damage (assuming it is unrelated for the sake of argument) prevents testing of the board to test said inherent fault which in this case i'm guessing it does (it isn't going to work with bent pins regardless) then whether it does or doesn't have an inherent fault ends up being neither here nor there as no one can prove it either way any more.

Trouble is, no one can ultimately prove they did or did not cause that damage. Scan have policies (very reasonable ones) for reporting visible damages, so the fact you never contacted them I would think gives them some defence. You have nothing tangible other than your word that you didn't do it.

The problem with that is that the law says that within the first 6 months, faults are assumed to be the suppliers responsibility unless it can be assumed they aren't. To put it slightly more technically, if during the first 6 months goods don't conform to contract (and in this case, it is clear they don't, due to damage, regardless of who caused it) then it MUST be presumed to have been present at time of delivery, and therefore the supplier is liable, UNLESS it can be established it was not.

The question, therefore, is not whether the buyer reported the fault or not. For a start, a major factor in the buyer reporting the fault will be how likely it is that he would have noticed the fault. If the fault was an incorrect component in a power supply, how could the buyer know? Or, in this case, just how detailed an inspection, and what level of knowledge is the buyer expected to have, in order to spot the bent pin. So a court, when assessing the impact of the buyer not reporting the fault would be likely to include how likely to buyer was to have actually spotted the fault.

If, as you say, no one cam prove it either way, then Scan have a problem, as the Sale of Goods Act clearly stipulates that for 6 months, faults be be assumed to be inherent unless it can be established that they were not.

In effect, the buyer doesn't have to prove he didn't do it. The seller has to prove he did.

But the next issue will be what the seller needs to do to prove that. If this went to court, it'd be a civil court not a criminal one, so the standard required to prove something is "balance of probability" not "beyond reasonable doubt". Can Scan prove, to that extent, that the board was not faulty on delivered? I don't know, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. If boards arrive sealed, and the damaged part is covered by a protector and not touched before delivery, and if the damage is such as to have likely resulted from incorrect installation, then they may be able to satisfy a court of that, regardless of where the damage actually occurred. I have no doubt that Scan, and any other sensible retailer, has systems and procedures in place precisely to be able to show a chain of events that, at the very least, makes it less likely that it wasn't damaged by them. it's also likely to be regarded as fairly unlikely to have been damaged in the factory.

So, when a court looks at the story both sides tell, will it "establish" that the damage most likely occurred, whether he realises it or not, by the user? Who knows? But I'd suspect it's at least a decent possibility that that's how they'd see it.

Ultimately, it looks like either :-

1) Scan back down and replace the board. Judging by this thread, it doesn't seem likely.
2) The buyer backs down and writes it off to experience.
3) They reach a compromise.
4) It goes to court, and the court decides but it's anyone's guess how that will turn out.

Getting sent back - again, you'd need the photo to prove it happened after leaving you
While Scan have it - as above, you'd need some kind of proof it wasn't you

Well, nope. The statutory presumption of inherent fault kind of leaves the burden of proof the other way round. The question is whether Scan can meet that burden, and it may very well be that they could.

[divinemadness]

I'm guessing you have somewhat more legal experience than I do, so i'll not argue with that, though I don't think there is anything I would argue with anyway.

Either way, I still think collecting your own evidence (whether any legal burden is yours or not) such as photographs upon receipt/before return is a good idea as it will always leave you in a stronger position than without.

Having a think though, now that the board has been physically damaged, if that does prevent testing of the claimed original fault, there is nothing to say that fault ever existed at all, bar trusting that Tobias isn't lying about the issue (not an accusation, just laying out theoretical scenarios), the only visible fault is one that would appear to be user damage, be that end user or tester or whatever.

So would there still be the assumption of inherent fault? As in this case it strikes me that if I were to break something, as long as I claimed that it was broken already and didn't mention the damage I caused, I could later start trying to claim there is a now untestable inherent fault and my damage only occurred after that.

[GoNz0]

No, it can't. It's absolute nonsense.

The heat required to "weld" the pins of a 775 socket the the CPU is very high and simply can not happen under a normal operating environment. The pins on the motherboard and pads on the CPU are a mixture of copper and gold.
Gold has a melting point of 1064.18 °C
Copper has a melting point of 1084.62 °C

Even assuming that the metals are not pure, you can see that the melting points needed to do any form of welding are very high.

a spark can reach those temps m8, how else would i have a broken pin that stuck the the cpu with scorch marks, ampage caused it arching to the cpu.

a spark alone can exceed 1000 deg c 5 fold

and the original poster needs to take this further with scan, even more so with the suff saracens posted.

[Ricco]

The picture of the socket is not very clear, and the best I can work out the orientation it looks to me likely a VCC (one of a multiple amoutn in that LGA quadrant)

In otherwords, it looks to me like that pin is negligable on its own of causing a fail to Boot of a CPU. I doubt it even unlikely it would cause any stability issues.
I hope that helps.

[Agent]

a spark can reach those temps m8, how else would i have a broken pin that stuck the the cpu with scorch marks, ampage caused it arching to the cpu.

a spark alone can exceed 1000 deg c 5 fold

A spark is an electrical discharge between two points of differing potential and it's hard to see how one of these could have occurred on the pins going to the CPU. More so when you consider most motherboards are complete with 4 phase power filtering as minimum.
A spark in that location would require the failure of multiple parts on the motherboard, in addition to grounding issues to allow the potential to differ between the points.

Its very very unlikely. Half of the motherboard would have to be missing / faulty for this situation to occur.
As the OP hasn't indicated that there is any damage to the CPU either, it backs this up.

The chances that this has caused the OP's problem is virtually none existent.

[GoNz0]

yeh maybe for the OP but i had to rma a failed board that had done that and wanted to point out its not nonsence with your tempreture facts as sparks average a few thousand degrees and it can happen.

[Agent]

yeh maybe for the OP but....

the only way that pic could be bent is if it welded to the cpu, i had my 1st striker extreme snap 2 pins that i put down to being welded to the chip when removed.....

I was referring to your comment towards the op that "the only way" is non-sense.

You have however corrected yourself when I pointed this out, so fair enough

[GoNz0]

i do wonder how the hell the chip could cause a bent pin being put in and out though, it must be a flaw for it to happen to one pin and i think scan should stop bening so funny about it and send the bloody board back to asus and stop giving themselves bad press. as saracen says they cant prove anything and should handle matters in a better way such as ebuyer do.

[peterb]

yeh maybe for the OP but i had to rma a failed board that had done that and wanted to point out its not nonsence with your tempreture facts as sparks average a few thousand degrees and it can happen.

Actually - no. A spark is a hig voltage low currant phenomenon, and occurs when a high voltage breaks down the dielectrice strength of an insulator. In dry air, that requires an elecric field strength of about 3,000,000 V/M or 3,000 V/mm - that is, a 3,000V potential difference across a gap of 1 mm is required to cause a spark. (That is simplistic and electric field strength depends on the geometry of the conductors, but that explanation is good enough for this purpose)

An arc on the other hand is a low voltage high current phenomenon, caused when a current carrying circuit is broken. So whe yoy switch off something, you may briefly draw an arc between the two contacting surfaces which is incorrectly referred to as a spark. A spark can lead to an arc because an initial soppark causes ionisation of the air in the gap, and that leads to a low resistance path which can then (if the impedance of the source is low enough) generate an arc. The most impressive physical demonstartion is a lightening strike, which starts of as a sperk, and then becomes a high current arc.

What has that got to do with this case? If (and it's a big if) the pin had become welded to the CPU, that could only have happened by an arc if the CPU had been removed with the power applied. As I'm sure the OP didn't do that, it leaves on other explanation - that the pin made poor contact with the CPU when it was inserted and high contact resistance caused overheating and may have caused the discoloration. It is possible (but extremely unlikely IMHO) that that current would be high enough to weld the pin to the CPU.

Another poster stated that he thought that the damaged pin was Vcc (the power supply to the CPU). I am not in a position to say if that was correct or not, but if that is the case, and the connection was poor, there would be a voltage drop across that connection that woudl impair CPU performance, although whether that would cause the symptoms of the fault the OP described is difficult to determine.

However it is clear that the pin is damaged, and it is possible that that damage was caused during the fitting of the CPU. Again it is impossible to determine that without having seen the board before installation, but given that there is a QA process by the mfr which one might expect would detect that sort of damage during manufacture, and if the socket protector was in place when the OP received it, then on the balance of probabilities (which is the basis that a civil court would decide the case) it seems likely that the damage was caused accidentally and unknowingly during the machine's assembly.

Of course, this opinion is formed on the basis of the OP's comments and the poor quality photograph - physical examination of the board and the CPU , particularly under a magnifying glass or microscope might give more conclusive information.

[Tobias]

"Personally i'd be appealing to their better nature rather than threatening them with court action in such a position"

I don't believe any threats have been made by me. In fact I think my tone has been consistently unthreatening all the way. Yes, I have mentioned the small claims court, but only as a last resort because it seems that no "better nature" seems forthcoming and I'm interested to see if any forum users have experience of that. Do you really blame me for trying my very best to put right what I see as an injustice? If nothing else, I hope this continued discourse helps improves general understanding of the pitfalls that we self-bulders may face.