AMD - Zen chitchat

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I'm not sure what it is that made such a difference, but they seem to have painted themselves into a bit of a corner. AMD are winning many game benchmarks at 6 cores with 16 cores not that much ahead. I suspect at 65W and 6 threads it will still game rather well.

It will be a waste of money and will have a very short lifespan. The Ryzen 5 3600 absolutely destroys the Ryzen 5 3500X in benchmarks,and the only real difference is SMT.

It will be like buying a Core i5 7600K when the Ryzen 5 1600AF was released- now two years later the Core i5 is not such a good idea. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole,and it was the same reason I never recommended a Core i5 9600K over a Ryzen 5 3600. Unless you intend to replace CPUs every 2 years,its a poor longterm purchase. Even in some newer games a Ryzen 5 3600 beats a Core i5 9600K. Its the minimums which are the problem,if not now,give it 2 years once the new consoles are the main focus.

This is in era of 8T consoles,and we are entering an era of 16T consoles. I really wouldn't want to be buying a 6C/6T CPU,or even an 8C/8T CPU going forward,unless all you play is old games!

[DanceswithUnix]

It will be a waste of money and will have a very short lifespan. The Ryzen 5 3600 absolutely destroys the Ryzen 5 3500X in benchmarks,and the only real difference is SMT.

Oh I utterly agree, but AMD can't show benchmarks for games available in a years time. What the heck do AMD do when today's results look like this where minimums are the same between 5600X and 5900X, and no real difference in average rates either. Note that the 9600K and 10600K which are 6T vs 12T parts behave pretty much the same, and you have to go down to 4 cores to see a real drop but even that looks playable:

[DanceswithUnix]

3dCandy did a good job of hiding the news that Asus are putting beta BIOS files out for the 400 series boards

https://forums.hexus.net/hexus-sugge...ml#post4275657

I've downloaded mine in case it goes away again for some reason!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Oh I utterly agree, but AMD can't show benchmarks for games available in a years time. What the heck do AMD do when today's results look like this where minimums are the same between 5600X and 5900X, and no real difference in average rates either. Note that the 9600K and 10600K which are 6T vs 12T parts behave pretty much the same, and you have to go down to 4 cores to see a real drop but even that looks playable:

AMD can release the Ryzen 5 5600 with SMT,that is what they can do. History showed us this. E8400 vs Q6600,Core i5 vs Core i7 and Core i5 7600k vs Ryzen 5 1600.















The removal of SMT on the Ryzen 5 3500X despite it having more or less the same specs as the Ryzen 5 3600,lead to a noticeable drop in performance. The gap between the Core i5 7600K and Core i7 7700K has jumped,and the Ryzen 5 1600 which was hammered by the Core i5 7600K two years ago,now is consistently moving ahead. In fact minimums are the big issue.

Remember 8T consoles,but now the consoles are 16T. It was bad enough with the previous generation SMT showed noticeable improvements in games.

The Core i7 8700K despite having security mitigations which hampered performance,is at times noticeably faster in games.

That is born out by online mates I know who have both kinds of CPUs - the 6C/12T Intel CPUs just run games more consistently.

A 6C/6T CPU in 2020 is a con for someone building a gaming rig and expecting it to last a few years. Its a very cynical Intel-like move,to rip people off,ie,they will end up upgrading quicker. Better to pay the extra and get a Ryzen 5 5600X then. It wouldn't also surprise me if a 4C/8T Ryzen 5000 part more or less is the same too in games due to more threads.

But as usual the standard MO,is all the excuse makers will say,the 6C/6T Ryzen 5 is OK,until FPS collapses within 2 years and they suddenly distance themselves from any recommendations. Yet the same lot won't ever own one,ie,will have a model with SMT. Saw it all the time with the people pushing Core i5s all the time. All of them had a Core i7 of some sort.

Is also utterly hilarious the flip-flop from AMD fans elsewhere. Seen many saying Zen 2 Ryzen 5 was better than the quicker 6C Core i5 9600K because it had more threads and had better longevity.. Now its a total flip-flop. More threads isn't important,less threads are. Its not even consistent. Or is because Intel is now "slower" and offers more threads than AMD??

[DanceswithUnix]

The removal of SMT on the Ryzen 5 3500X despite it having more or less the same specs as the Ryzen 5 3600,lead to a noticeable drop in performance.

OK, you've carpet bombed me with graphs there, and as someone who found their old FX8350 just got more relevant rather than more dated for some years are preaching to the converted.

The first graph was the only one you wanted to show, Assassin's Creed has a healthy lead on the 3600 vs the 3500X. Far Cry looks like it would actually play better on the 3500X as the minimums are lower.

The graphs are a marketing headache, that was the point I was apparently failing to clearly make.

There aren't bad products, just bad prices here. At £45 the 4 thread Athlons are pretty decent value (if you can find one). So take a look at the graphs, apply a 20% uplift on the 3500X to see roughly where a Zen3 version would fit, and tell me how much you would sell a product that is probably mixing it with the 3700X in current games?


(I would actually hope and sort of expect that AMD will eventually come out with both a 65W 6C12T part and a 6C6T as well, they don't have to choose just one. There are also the APU Zen3 parts coming out to fill in this part of the range)

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

OK, you've carpet bombed me with graphs there, and as someone who found their old FX8350 just got more relevant rather than more dated for some years are preaching to the converted.

The first graph was the only one you wanted to show, Assassin's Creed has a healthy lead on the 3600 vs the 3500X. Far Cry looks like it would actually play better on the 3500X as the minimums are lower.

The graphs are a marketing headache, that was the point I was apparently failing to clearly make.

There aren't bad products, just bad prices here. At £45 the 4 thread Athlons are pretty decent value (if you can find one). So take a look at the graphs, apply a 20% uplift on the 3500X to see roughly where a Zen3 version would fit, and tell me how much you would sell a product that is probably mixing it with the 3700X in current games?


(I would actually hope and sort of expect that AMD will eventually come out with both a 65W 6C12T part and a 6C6T as well, they don't have to choose just one. There are also the APU Zen3 parts coming out to fill in this part of the range)

The issue is it will look OK now,but so did the Core i5 9600K,E8400,G3258,Core i5 7600K,etc. The issue,this is why I consider a con part. Intel clearly knew it was selling a part which had less longevity,etc. AMD definitely knows this,and expects such users to upgrade earlier. They after all made sure the consoles had 8C/16T Zen2 parts,and this is why I think Zen2 might be OK longterm. Literally every multi-platform game is going to have to be designed around 4+4 CCX Zen2 part. All people are seeing now is the legacy of a dying console generation.

AMD is going to price it at £200~£225. At that price I would take a Core i5 10600KF any day of the week over it.

So people mocking Intel for its stupid segmentation and games,and how AMD was offering more,now can see it was all a metric of AMD having worse products. Now just like in the Athlon 64 era,they will have no problem doing what Intel does.This is why,at least for gaming,we need Rocketlake and Alderlake to be good,because they are certainly not going to win in productivity benchmarks.

The difference is AMD is now doing what Intel did,in just one generation of beating them in performance. Intel took at least a few generations slowly doing this.

If not expect,the next generation for AMD to push up 4C/8T past £200,because Zen4 now is 20% faster in games.

I agree that the problem here is prices. Paul from not an apple fan isn't happy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G7C-iPWDrg



I seriously hope that the Ryzen 5 5600 non-X isn't 6C/6T. I hope it is an inaccurate rumour. I would rather AMD reduces some of the L3 cache TBH!

I really hope that isn't the case but now they have the performance I doubt they will be able to resist that kind of segmentation.

I really hope so too,as I don't want a return to £200+ 4C/8T CPUs just because AMD has made the single core performance 20% more with Zen4,and Intel is still behind!

[DanceswithUnix]

The difference is AMD is now doing what Intel did,in just one generation of beating them in performance. Intel took at least a few generations slowly doing this.

What, they are using threats and bribes to artificially stamp on Intel's ability to sell chips while stealing intellectual property all while putting out buggy second rate product? I don't think we are quite there yet.

I am however quite glad I'm not in the market for an upgrade right now. I know you are and I do empathise.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

What, they are using threats and bribes to artificially stamp on Intel's ability to sell product while stealing intellectual property all while putting out buggy second rate product? I don't think we are quite there yet.

I am however quite glad I'm not in the market for an upgrade right now. I know you are and I do empathise.

Well,more the segmentation and sandbagging. Intel did take a few generations to start doing that(from Core2 to Ivy Bridge). Although if AMD grows big enough,you never know....just saying!

I just hope AMD does not get too complacent and Intel actually comes out with something decent. They did it during the Athlon 64 era after all.

Honestly at the rate things are going this stop-gap Ryzen 5 2600 is probably going to be somewhat longer term. Saw a Ryzen 7 3700X for £273,yet Amazon.de had it for £250 a few weeks ago. I am going to hold off. Already got a "new" PSU for a bargain price and a 32GB kit of RAM. Not the Micron kit because it was out of stock too. That will do for now. Even my mate who was looking at upgrading their Ryzen 7 2700 now has kind of perusaded themselves its fine.

They want a new GPU though,so are even more screwed than me! They sold their old RX5700XT in anticipation of the new GPUs and have a 4GB RX570(and game at 1440p)!

[DanceswithUnix]

Honestly at the rate things are going this stop-gap Ryzen 5 2600 is probably going to be somewhat longer term.

Well given how well the 5000 series seem to be selling despite the pricing, I suspect there will be 3000 series parts on the second hand market before long.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Well given how well the 5000 series seem to be selling despite the pricing, I suspect there will be 3000 series parts on the second hand market before long.

I am a bit concerned with the way the prices are going up,the Ryzen 3000 parts might end up being close to new prices secondhand,especially with what might happen early next year!

[xylus]

I managed to snag a 5600X bundle, currently waiting for it to be assembled - should arrive next week. Anybody else got lucky and ordered one? ^_^ I opted for the Vision D B550 motherboard since I want a sleek white-looking mobo. Definitely super pricey but... gotta pay premium for that white.

[jazzhands111]

Well given how well the 5000 series seem to be selling despite the pricing, I suspect there will be 3000 series parts on the second hand market before long.

Things should sort themselves out when AMD cut the manufacturing on new consoles as demand goes down. Which is hopefully within the coming months.

[Rob_B]

CCL has the 3100 back down to £96, vs 10100F at £75 (back in at Scan) I think I'm going to pay the extra for the overclocking potential.

EDIT: Aaaand in the few minutes it took me to get my credit card and sit down again it is now back up to £105 !! Nevermind

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

CCL has the 3100 back down to £96, vs 10100F at £75 (back in at Scan) I think I'm going to pay the extra for the overclocking potential.

EDIT: Aaaand in the few minutes it took me to get my credit card and sit down again it is now back up to £105 !! Nevermind

Unless you can really wait until the new year,give it another week or so and then get a Core i3.

I mean just look at this latest update on OcUK WRT to Zen3:

Hi there

Also this moring I have sourced some grey stock at huge expense but they should land before Christmas and though we lose as much as £100 per CPU on some of these lines Overclockers UK wants to do everything it can to ensure people can get some CPUs before Christmas as such we have the following due to land around 14th December from grey supplier, I shall also include our cost on these items so you can see how much money we lose compared to what you the customer paid:

5950X - 30pc due and our cost £657.44 excluding VAT (£788.93 with VAT)
5900X - 50pc due and our cost £575.17 excluding VAT (£690.20 with VAT)
5800X - 15pc due and our cost £403.14 excluding VAT (£483.77 with VAT)
5600X - 14pc due and our cost £298.43 excluding VAT (£358.12 with VAT)


So when you see companies with stock selling way way beyond MSRP it is not always because they are scalping, it is simply because they had to pay a lot more.

It won't get better IMHO come January!

[Corky34]

Looks like the resizeable BAR being restricted to the five thousand series is a hardware limitation.

Apparently the PCI-Express root complex of Ryzen 5000 "Vermeer" processors introduce a PCIe physical-layer feature called full-rate _pdep_u32/64, which is required for resizable-BAR to work

Look's like a BIOS update isn't going to be able to backport it to older boards.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Looks like the resizeable BAR being restricted to the five thousand series is a hardware limitation.

Look's like a BIOS update isn't going to be able to backport it to older boards.

Sounds more like a proactive excuse for platform segmentation.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...e4#post1215694

Smart Access Technology works just fine on Linux. It is resizeable BAR support which Linux has supported for years (AMD actually added support for this), but which is relatively new on windows. You just need a platform with enough MMIO space. On older systems this is enabled via sbios options with names like ">4GB MMIO".

This was before the RDNA2 launch,so it works fine on older systems,which would imply at least Zen2 and RDNA1.

Remember,AMD was implying you "needed" PCI-E 4.0 for it too,yet we saw PCI-E 3.0 was fine,so unless they release it and it happens,I don't believe what random people on a forum are saying. I would put more faith in a person who is involved with actual driver development! It would be major egg on the face,if Nvidia brings its equivalent to Zen2,and AMD can't!