Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[ajbrun]

@ajbrun: If you believe that religious beliefs can cause one to commit terrible things, beyond what a non religious person is capable of, then wouldn't it suggest the same influence in the other direction could result in a person living a more charitable life beyond what a non-religious person would?

That wasn't my point.
* We obviously had some sort of moral code before religion, so therefore religion doesn't give us that sense of morality.
* I just used some of the 'bad points' of Christianity to show that it can't all be good. I'm sure the vast majority of Christians are moral people, but my point was that it's better (in my opinion anyway) to teach children morality without all the bad/incorrect stuff that's contained within many religions.
* I don't in anyway think that religion breeds immoral people (in most cases). Like G4Z said, we have been evolved to act in a certain way. If we all murdered everyone we didn't like, we would eventually become extinct. Of course it can be argued that religion does in fact cause immorality, but that's really for another thread.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Just my 2 pence:

CHILDREN NEED MORAL VALUES - most religious schools provide these, as they form a large part of any religion. That's the problem these days with youth crime rates and youth gangs. Lack of moral values leads to nasty things.

How do you think non-religious people get their moral values?

The faith schools in this country seem quite harmless - it's not like they are indoctrinating the children to blow themselves up or anything. A bit of havest festival etc is all good stuff for kids, lol

In this country yes, but the state of religion could soon turn out similar to what's going on in America.
Do you really want your children to be visiting a creationist museum which says that man and dinosaur lived together and that the earth is only 6,000 years old? Should they be preached to, and told that fictional books are evil? Or worst of all, should you be afraid to tell your own parents that you're actually a non-believer?

Religious teachings to children in America makes uneducated adults. This is why I want religion and science to be taught as completely different subjects, and not mixed in anyway. Religion should be be imposed on anyone, especially not children, or else you will end up with serious conflicts within families when the child realises he's been brought up into the wrong religion.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0c-XoIwfLAM

And that is why the petition is really stupid I think...let people be who they want to be as long as it doesn't affect you.

I'm quite happy for people to be who they want to be, but I get seriously worried when it comes down to children. At such a young age, does any child really know what religion they want to be brought up in, or are they just regurgitating what they've been told through their parents? As I said before, many people would have the same problem if someone sent their child to a racist/sexist/homophobic school to teach moral values according to that "faith".

my two pence:

religion might of brought out the worst in some people.... but i think it has brought out the best in far more people. We have an amazing history in this country of caring for others which has been born out of broadly christian morals, i.e. schools for non upper class children, hospitals for the poor, any number of charities.

It might not be fashionaly for you, and i'll probably be shot down for saying it, but religious morals - especially christian ones have done far more good than harm.

How are you intending chooseing / teaching you morals to the kids?

I'm not sure 'survival of the fittest' would often produce much welfare for those who suffer in life... but maybe i am just old fashioned...

I disagree.

Without mentioning religious based charities (there are many more non-religion focused charities), tell me how all those things you mentioned are specifically religious. I have no religious beliefs, yet I still support many of them. Also, why is that 2,000 years of Christianity needed to have passed before they came into practise?

Yet again, with the survival of the fittest remark, how do you think we survived in the stone age? Why is it not possible to teach morality to children without involving religion?

[usxhe190]

It's not a big deal, they're not a whole lot different from normal schools and they're catering to a subset of society. You simply cannot say that this particular subset should be denied their options, that leads to intolerance and hatred. Personally, I think religion is a load of crap, but I'd still consider sending my child to a faith school if it had the best results in the league tables!

I am with you Lucio...I "worship" best grades more than any religion for my kid and if a faith school is in the top of their league, I am sending them there!! But the irony is, just like religion, it doesn't mean my kid is going to be the smartest kid in town unfortunately!!!

[usxhe190]

I'm quite happy for people to be who they want to be, but I get seriously worried when it comes down to children. At such a young age, does any child really know what religion they want to be brought up in, or are they just regurgitating what they've been told through their parents? As I said before, many people would have the same problem if someone sent their child to a racist/sexist/homophobic school to teach moral values according to that "faith".

I think we have Hexus members here who actually WENT to a faith based school as a child who are more qualified than us to say what really happens inside a faith based school. AND I don't think kids are being brainwashed (which is what we are scared of) other than getting more information about religion.

In any event, to people who is scared of their kid learning more about religion, no problems, I will be sending my kids to a faith based school if that school is best performing school.

[Bluecube]

I think the petitioner has unfortunately lumped in mainstream faith schools (CoE, Catholic, others) with the outrightly wrong nuttiness of extremist Muslim "schools" (and I use the word as loosely as possible here). There is also some wacko school in the NE (I think) formed by one of the Vardy brothers (that run the car sales business) that teaches only Creationism and considers Darwinism blasphemy. The petition could could be a bit clearer on this aspect. Nonetheless, it has a good point. Religion has little, if no, place in schools and it should be left to parents to teach children about their religion.

[usxhe190]

I think the petitioner has unfortunately lumped in mainstream faith schools (CoE, Catholic, others) with the outrightly wrong nuttiness of extremist Muslim "schools" (and I use the word as loosely as possible here). There is also some wacko school in the NE (I think) formed by one of the Vardy brothers (that run the car sales business) that teaches only Creationism and considers Darwinism blasphemy. The petition could could be a bit clearer on this aspect. Nonetheless, it has a good point. Religion has little, if no, place in schools and it should be left to parents to teach children about their religion.

sorry there are lots of nuttiness of extremist religious schools (e.g. some catholic schools in the states)...not just muslim schools...

[ajbrun]

If a parent wants their kid to know more about a particular religion - good for them. Just like if a parent pushes their kids to go to a performing arts school - good for them. Whether that kid actually likes it or believes in it, it is another matter. Would that kid start to steal, kill, bomb, getting ASBO orders? Who knows...

The point I am trying to make is that it should not be taught like this:

"Jesus did this..."

It should be more like:

"Christians believe that Jesus did this..."

I think we have Hexus members here who actually WENT to a faith based school as a child who are more qualified than us to say what really happens inside a faith based school. AND I don't think kids are being brainwashed (which is what we are scared of) other than getting more information about religion.

Then what is the purpose of a faith based school if they teach the same stuff as regular schools without any religious indoctrination of any bias towards one particular religion?

[kalniel]

Religion has little, if no, place in schools and it should be left to parents to teach children about their religion.

I think it's exactly this kind of view that leads to extremism and bigotry. Religion should be taught in schools because it's the only place where you can hopefully provide a decent level of education in it. Leaving it to parents is an horrendous idea that can only create narrow and biased thinking. Parents are not qualified to teach about the religions of the world.

[Whalefish]

Learning about religion is quite different from the religious indoctrination that goes on in 'Faith' schools. The Bible should be studied for what is, a collection of ancient stories and fables not as the infallible word of the numero uno sky fairy.
The teaching of mumbo jumbo over and above that of reason based facts and theories is not something I want my taxes to be wasted on.
I have yet to hear of any scientist strapping explosives to himself\herself and blowing up innocent people in the name of Darwin\Newton\Einstein etc, or indeed insisting that condoms either have little holes in that pass the AIDS virus or are deliberately infected with the AIDS virus.

[spiral out]

I think it's exactly this kind of view that leads to extremism and bigotry. Religion should be taught in schools because it's the only place where you can hopefully provide a decent level of education in it. Leaving it to parents is an horrendous idea that can only create narrow and biased thinking. Parents are not qualified to teach about the religions of the world.

Religious education of all religions should be taught in class, but i don't think we should have school that are religous.

[kalniel]

Learning about religion is quite different from the religious indoctrination that goes on in 'Faith' schools.

So, seeing as religious indoctrination doesn't go on in faith schools, we've no need for the petition?

[ajbrun]

So, seeing as religious indoctrination doesn't go on in faith schools, we've no need for the petition?

We'd also have no need for faith schools either? What is the difference between 'normal' schools and faith schools?

[CMC]

We'd also have no need for faith schools either? What is the difference between 'normal' schools and faith schools?

as far as i can see not very much, but i didnt go to a faith school...

[kalniel]

We'd also have no need for faith schools either? What is the difference between 'normal' schools and faith schools?

In my experience, not a lot. A 'faith school' is just one founded and supported fincancially by a religious organisation. Many faiths believe that providing education is a good thing, so many churches and similar organisations (quakers etc.) founded schools for the education of the people. Often before any central goverment or council bothered to.

If you wanted to knock them all down and build replacements with the tax payers money instead that'd be fine - except it'd be a waste of money and a waste of a good building.

[G4Z]

One question, did you actually attend a faith school or are you just arguing because you think something, in your non-experience, is wrong?

I refer you back to my previous comments that faith schools aren't about indoctrination or indeed forcing "religious myths" into children's brains. The people who I know attended faith schools were taught the same subjects in the same way and the only real difference was that they went to morning prayer and RE (which covered all religions) was a mandatory subject up till GCSE years.

It's not a big deal, they're not a whole lot different from normal schools and they're catering to a subset of society. You simply cannot say that this particular subset should be denied their options, that leads to intolerance and hatred. Personally, I think religion is a load of crap, but I'd still consider sending my child to a faith school if it had the best results in the league tables!

Look, if faith schools are not about indoctrination then why are these people so insistent on having them, and further having taxpayers like me fund them! They blatanty ARE about indoctrination, my girlfriend went to a Catholic school and she was most definitely indoctrinated, the standard of education she got also seems very poor. I know her very well as I have been with her for 7 years and living together 5 of those, the gaps in her knowledge that she should have learned sometimes stun me (I myself went to a rather sub-standard state secondary school). She is very motivated though and has since put herself though several courses (A levels at college, and more A-levels a couple of years later). she has now come to the conclusion that this whole God idea is just crazy and I am happy to say I played some part in that, although I think when she studied biology that clinched it.

If these schools are not for indoctrination, can you please explain to me exactly what they are for and why the hell we need them...? Nobody has managed to supply even a feeble answer to that question.

[kalniel]

If these schools are not for indoctrination, can you please explain to me exactly what they are for and why the hell we need them...? Nobody has managed to supply even a feeble answer to that question.

Well if you refuse to read answers already provided...

[ajbrun]

Well if you refuse to read answers already provided...

Unless it's about the moral good these schools provide or that the parents want their children there, I must have miss them. Any chance of a few quotes to save me reading back a few hundred posts?