Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[TooNice]

@ajbrun: If you believe that religious beliefs can cause one to commit terrible things, beyond what a non religious person is capable of, then wouldn't it suggest the same influence in the other direction could result in a person living a more charitable life beyond what a non-religious person would?

I'll go no either way. People are 'wired' differently. To say that you do not need religion to be a good person is as vague and valid as saying that religion do not make a bad person. You can have religious fanatics, you can have non religious yet crazed individual. You can have a devout saint who may or may not practice a religion. You also have people who are religious/non religious to varying degrees (different level of influences), and those people can be 'good' or 'bad'. I've not really looked for, hence do not know whether religion is more likely to cause someone someone to go good/bad or if there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever. And while you've noted the negative aspects of Christianity, if you were to do a complete and comprehensive listing of the positive, negative and neutral aspect of its teaching, would you actually say that the teaching is overall bad?

Religion has caused a number of problems in society, but does it really mean that society would be better without it? Or would it only mean that we'll find new ways to generate conflicts? And would those conflicts be better or worse? In addition to the 'if else' question that none of us can scientifically answer, is there any evidence that religion is causing more harm than good? I am willing to accept a proper research paper on on this matter, but I can't simply take a one-sided view of when things go wrong alone.

[Lucio]

My personal view on religions is that organised religion has the potential to be misguided into harmful acts against others, or for it to be misrepresented by people acting in it's name.

However, this doesn't make religions any different from all the other different types of social groups out there. For example, take Hexus, we're a social group, if the mods started (for example), a child porn ring, along with a very small handful of members, would you think it fair that the police suddenly bashed down your door just because you belonged to Hexus?

At the end of the day, I can't help but think our society is falling apart because one by one we're tearing down every single insitution and replacing it with a "cult of self" where each person is being told that they're the most important people in the world. Belonging to part of a group, whether it's religion, Hexus, whatever is important and shouldn't stop you from respecting people who are part of different groups.

[dannyboy83]

So you want to ban catholic and CoE schools too ?

TiG

I really agree with abolishing Catholic schools. Up here in Scotland, Kids are divided at the age of 4/5 to Catholic school and general non-denomination schools. I lived in the same area as some catholic kids for many years but never got the chance to know them much because they were bused off the catholic schools from a young age and we walked down to the local non-denomination school. As well as the parental and family influences, I think it's the biggest cause of bigotry and sectarianism in the West of Scotland and beyond. It just instils seperation and segregation.

[usxhe190]

I really agree with abolishing Catholic schools. Up here in Scotland, Kids are divided at the age of 4/5 to Catholic school and general non-denomination schools. I lived in the same area as some catholic kids for many years but never got the chance to know them much because they were bused off the catholic schools from a young age and we walked down to the local non-denomination school. As well as the parental and family influences, I think it's the biggest cause of bigotry and sectarianism in the West of Scotland and beyond. It just instils seperation and segregation.

I am not Catholic but just a point on the above post - separation takes TWO to tango. Going to different schools DOES NOT cause bigotry and sectarianism... unless you think going to different supermarkets or different pubs also causes bigotry and sectarianism....

[badass]

Short answer, just because 99% of people believe something stupid does not mean that the belief is suddenly valid. Its still stupid.

That much is true.

[kalniel]

Misunderstandings abound.

There seem to be two things the petition is asking for:
1) Abolish any schools that remove the rights of children to choose their own religious, philosophical and ethical beliefs.

2) Prohibit teaching of creationism and other religious 'mythology' in UK schools.

#1 I don't mind at all. However I don't think we have many, if any, schools that do this in the UK.

#2 I don't agree with at all - lack of education about the world's religions is IMHO the primary reason we have so many disputes/wars that somehow involve religion. We need *more* understanding, not less.

[Stringent]

You cannot define good if you do not have a standard from which to go from. For example, how do I know that old Jonny down the market isn't conning me out of a kg of carrots? We need to take his weight to a place that has the standard which says either yes that is a KG or no its not. There needs to be an absolute.

Same with morals. Good is determined by an absolute good, i.e. a standard of good from which to be compared to.

We all have different ideas of what's good and bad, where do those standards come from? Who's to say what is good and bad, and why does it change?

Evolution isn't fact either. You are the delirious one if you think it is. We look at the same evidence, we have it all here in front of us, so why then does the same evidence point one person into thinking evolution, and another into creation?

Your references to killing in the Bible. If you take the Biblical perspective, who's world is this? Gods. Therefore it is God's right as Creator to do what He commands. If someone disobeys you or does not do what you want them to (whether children or in a job) do you not punish them in some sort of way or tick them off? In the Bible before the armies of Israel went to war there were peace offerings made. God sanctioned that Israel was doing His will by miraculous events. (i.e. crossing of the Red sea etc.). God brought punishment on those nations who refused to do His Will. As Creator and Judge God HAS that Authority over them as a people.

I haven't read all the thread, and I seriously don't want this to go into a religion/science debate. No matter what I or anyone else will say, I can see its not going to change peoples minds, as you would rather believe what you are comfortable with and what makes you happy. If you believe there is no God and Creator, that leaves you to do what the heck you want without any consequences, don't have to own up to anyone, live the life you have now to the fullest because there is nothing at the end. Nothing to worry about when you die, you just cease to exist. In a few generations people will forget you. Some life.

However with regard to schools, I don't know. I know some parents who send them off to Bishops Stortford because of its 'religion' upbringing. The fact is, that the majority of these schools are very similar to the secular ones with added bits thrown in. Anyways, I'm not going to say any more on the matter, as I feel these types of discussion doesn't really go anywhere. I just thought I'd air my thoughts. Freedom of speech and all.

[usxhe190]

I think this is the only issue we disagree on now. How can teaching religion to someone to a child so young be right? Have you ever wondered why there are so many christians in the west? Why is it that your parents are (probably) christian? How is it a choice when the religion a person takes on is simply what their parents believe? Surely it's much fairer to teach all religions to a child in equal measures until they're able to make up their own mind?

that's a weird comment i think - your parents have a major influence on your upbringing even more so than religion and they can teach you their biased facts ...

[usxhe190]

stand back:

parents bring their kids to a christian school for their christian values
parents bring their kids to a science school for their science values
parents bring their kids to a sporting school for their sporting values
parents bring their kids to an art school for their artistic values
parents bring their kids to a music school for their musical values
parents bring their kids to a public school for their exclusive values

Seriously guys, it really doesn't matter - your parents with their own biased views shapes you. Your friends' biased views shapes you. Your books, movies and internet shapes you. When you get older, you can try to understand that.

And don't worry, kids or humans will worship something whether it is a god or not.

[StoX]

Just my 2 pence:

CHILDREN NEED MORAL VALUES - most religious schools provide these, as they form a large part of any religion. That's the problem these days with youth crime rates and youth gangs. Lack of moral values leads to nasty things.

The faith schools in this country seem quite harmless - it's not like they are indoctrinating the children to blow themselves up or anything. A bit of havest festival etc is all good stuff for kids, lol

[G4Z]

Few points for Stringent.

Morality is the product of evolution, we are a social animal and groups that do not kill each other, steal from each other and do the things that we consider immoral would be less successful than groups that follow moral rules and therefore do not over time pass on as many of their genes.

Also, its disingenuous to say evolution 'is not a fact'. It is a fact, its as close to a fact as you are ever going to get in science. There is a theory of gravity as well, it can't be proven 100% but every moment the earth remains in the suns orbit and does not go flying off into space confirms that our theory must be pretty much correct. Would you deny that gravity is a fact as well?

Maybe you should go back and read the thread and think seriously about the points being made before you repeat the same tired and useless arguments.

Also, just because you think that its a 'sad thought' that we die and there is nothing after does not make it any less true. I fully accept that when I die, my brain will rot and all the little connections in my brain that make me the person I am will be gone. Just because I realise the truth that in the end none of this matters because I will be dead does not mean I am going to be 'immoral'. I have the same evolved sense of morality that you do and I take none of it from religion. Do you need to live in fear of burning in hell just to behave? Ridiculous argument.

[usxhe190]

Just my 2 pence:

CHILDREN NEED MORAL VALUES - most religious schools provide these, as they form a large part of any religion. That's the problem these days with youth crime rates and youth gangs. Lack of moral values leads to nasty things.

Yes, I am sure back in the 'GOOD OLD' days there were no youth crime rates and youth gangs, only religious bombings, crusades, stoning....history check

moral values can be taught by religion and no religion...it is the upbringing of the kid...

The faith schools in this country seem quite harmless - it's not like they are indoctrinating the children to blow themselves up or anything. A bit of havest festival etc is all good stuff for kids, lol

agree with you there, they aren't indoctrinating any hate against any other religion or person like the good old days anymore so that is a good thing...

And that is why the petition is really stupid I think...let people be who they want to be as long as it doesn't affect you.

And if anyone says "but i am paying for those religious schools", well maybe next time they should think of how many things they pay for in taxes which doesn't actually go BACK TO THEM. This is not a religious argument anymore - it is a political argument.

[Brucelles]

Read the petition and think it sucks.

I am an atheist and believe that all children should be basically Religion exempt until they are about 12 and old enough to laugh off this pointless dross. However, people have rights and one is to be as stupid as they like when it comes to a belief in fairies, gods or ghosts.

If the petition had said "to ban the teaching of religious dogma in science or other secular lessons, as though it were fact" I would be happy to sign. Creationism and "intelligent design" are both instruments of the mentally incapable, and we shouldn't teach that sort of rubbish in schools.

I agree with those that say that religion has sparked some of the worst wars in the history of the world, but I also believe that, for those too dumb to think for themselves, it provides a useful moral code, and for those for whom the world would be too confusing if some questions had no known answers, it is comforting to hear the magic phrase "God did it, and hid."

However I kind of like the fact that people have some dumb beliefs. In the Isle of Man I believe that there are pixies under some bridges, in Arabia there are places in the desert where djinns cause minor accidents, in Britain some people believe in an immortal bloke who was his own dad until be was killed and became a zombie who sucked some kind of invisable bad thing out of people. And you can keep your immunity from this bad thing by an act of cannibalism by proxy. Others believe in the same super-being, but leave out the cannibalism or the zombie.

I don't think it does too much harm until you get more than 500 people who believe the same thing and join a club, then they become a flock; to be fleeced.

If kids were taught only comparative religion, after age 12 I think the tendency to join one of those clubs would diminish and less hassle would ensue.

I have no issue with people believing that a hippo God shat the earth out, or a hairy bloke did it with a magic spell, but I think kids should go through childhood without being hoodwinked into believing crap, whilst believing it to be fact. So, ban creationism in schools, but allow anyone to learn stories of the supernatural, once they are old enough to understand the context.

[CMC]

here's my input... i think faith schools do have good aspects to them... but i dont see why there is a NEED for them as such... i went to a regular high school, not a faith school, and im glad i didnt go to a faith school, because that isnt representative of the real world.... i had friends that were christian, and had friends that did'nt really care about religion... which is what the real world is like...

morality can come from religious viewpoints or your general view of the world and upbringing...

I think that my views about morality are based on my faith as a christian, but im sure there are others who have the same views as me but dont follow any form of religion...

[kalniel]

I agree with those that say that religion has sparked some of the worst wars in the history of the world, but I also believe that, for those too dumb to think for themselves, it provides a useful moral code

Well I think that ignorance of religion is at least as responsible. Maybe if there was no religion at all then they wouldn't have happened, but we can't pretend religion doesn't exist so we might as well educate people about it properly as that has a far better chance of preventing wars (and yes, I do view extremism as a result of poor education/understanding) than sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending they don't exist. Hence why I don't agree with the petition.

[usxhe190]

Yes, I also agree the petition is a bit pointless.

To the petitioner,
are state funding of faith based schools waking you up at nights?!
are state funding of faith based schools giving you headaches?!
are state funding of faith based schools making you late for work?!

If not, there are bigger fish to fry...

edited to include wording in bold just for my friend G4Z