Fuddam, A Few Moments Of Your Time Please.

[Stewart]

So will the atheist go to heaven? I have no idea, because I don't know his/her circumstance, his heart, his history, his thoughts, his background. All I know is he/her will be judged perfectly, and perfect justice will prevail.

That doesn't mean, of course, that one can hear about Christ again and again, and yet reject Him, and then expect to be acceptable to stand before God, clean of sin...........

Can a good man reject Christ? Is accepting Jesus into your life the only way you can truly be good?

There are no truely good athiests? Hindus? What about indians in the rain forrest, who have never heard of Christianity, or Jesus?

And you can say God talks to these people, but these people will have no idea of the story of Jesus, they will not know he choked to death on a hot cross bun for all our sins.

Anyway, if I don't believe Jesus was the son of God, nor that God, or certainly Christian God exists, then why would I accept him?

See, I don't believe in it, so I have no choice. If I became a Christian in order to avoid eternal hell, it wouldn't fly. You have to love Jesus, etc. In order to love Jesus you have to believe he was the son of God. I don't, so I can't.

So I don't reject Jesus because I'm a bad person, and I do not worship any other Gods. No false idols for me, matey boy.

God doesn't speak to me, he makes no attempt to get me to accept him. And if he does its far too subtle.

With me he is a victim of his own success. Gave me free will, gave me (some) intelligence. Gave me a yearning for knowledge. So its not enough for me to blindly believe in something without proof. There is no proof that I can see, so I turn to science for the answers, and science is founded on not accepting things without proof.

My non acceptence of God is not because of an evil or sinful nature, but because I'm using what I was given to find the answers he is not providing.

Anyway, I did say earlier in this thread I would read the bible, and I will, from cover to cover. This might get me a few brownie points on judgement day.

[staffsMike]

Anyway, I did say earlier in this thread I would read the bible, and I will, from cover to cover. This might get me a few brownie points on judgement day.

Well at least if you don't read it you can plead ignorance

What are you going to say on judgement day? .. Didn't like it (and shrug your shoulders).

Or quote family guy in reference to The Godfather, "I didn't like it, it insists upon itself"

[Stewart]

When I speak to God on judgement day I will tell him this is the first time I have spoken to you.

Then I will ask him to justify the millions of deaths caused by religion. The slaughter carried out in his name. The children abused by his Priests. Allowng his message to be the engine of more suffering than any other single event.

If he falls to his knees and begs forgiveness for not acting while all this evil was done in his name (I will make it clear there has been no evil commited in my name) I might forgive him and listen to his story.

Or I'll just start to worship Odin to piss him off.

If he still wont have it, I'll use the ace up my sleeve... 'So Goddy... can you make a rock you can't lift, Mr Omnipotent?'

[staffsMike]

Never run over a rabbit? Did you secretly aim for it? Or killed a spider?

All Gods creatures.. great and small

Assuming you met God, he would probably just tell you that he didn't write any of that ****. Free will wrote that crap and fought those wars

[Stewart]

Spiders!

I knew they'd bring me down eventually.

[Main]

Can a good man reject Christ? Is accepting Jesus into your life the only way you can truly be good?

That's one part that gets me about religion, the thought that there is only one path, and that it's the path that whomever is talking about it is on, and that if you aren't on it you're doomed.

I see a few problems with this thinking:

There are no truely good athiests? Hindus? What about indians in the rain forrest, who have never heard of Christianity, or Jesus?

This is the first one really, the way somebody who isn't born in the right place is automatically tagged as damned. Same goes for babies that die before baptism (original sin is not cleansed), those who don't confess before death, and suicide regardless of cause or reason. These are completely unfair situations, and undermine the idea of a loving God, since the afterlife of some is determined by blind luck.

Actually that follows to my second major problem with religion - the way that if God is who they say he is, the above notion of blind luck is actually nonsense and their ends were their fate. Why? If God created everything, knows everything and is all powerful, then he is capable of determining all future events for everything and has done in the past too. And when I say everything I mean everything. As far as you're concerned you have free will in every choice. As far as God is concerned you're just moving down a set path.

The entirety of existence from the dawn of time up until its end is just a big jigsaw on God's table, and he put it all together the moment it started - that is what omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence mean to me.

I feel like if I say any more at the moment I'm going to drag this too close to a debate about God's existence...it's just always seemed to me that if you accept that such a God could exist, it just doesn't work when you think it through.

[staffsMike]

Well you could argue that God has chosen you to be an atheist (or whatever you are) and that is your path.
In that case it would only be fair that each path leads to the same place, as God has chosen it for you.

Or he simply gives you choices along the way and you are free to make them as you will, each path you take creates a new choice somewhere down the line. That way you you follow a path that you choose but of his design.

Chances are though, it all fades to black and we become worm food. Live this life the best way you know how, you may only get one chance.. that we can be sure about anyway

[mediaboy]

They're trying to turn this thread back to lightheartednes!! Not allowed

Can a good man reject Christ? Is accepting Jesus into your life the only way you can truly be good?

There are no truely good athiests? Hindus? What about indians in the rain forrest, who have never heard of Christianity, or Jesus?

From a Christian perspective you have to worship Christ to be a good man. So a good man automatically worships christ... problem solved. I'm sure it's not the only way, but yes, it's one of the requirements... amongst loving your neighbour as yourself. (NT only, of course, to avoid the Jewish/Christian Debate)

And you can say God talks to these people, but these people will have no idea of the story of Jesus, they will not know he choked to death on a hot cross bun for all our sins.

He didn't choke to death on a hot cross bun. He was crucified ON a cross.. although whether or not he did this for our sins is up to debate. However, there is historical evidence (look through fuddam's posts to pointers towards this.. not just the one's in this topic but in all the other ones as well) that Jesus of Nazareth existed, preached and was crucified. Beyond that it's faith.

And surely a Christian would say that God talks to everyone, but not everyone listens. So yes, he talks to them, but that doesn't imply that they listen. And, for all we know, there is a little tribe, in the middle of nowhere, worshipping a God that appears to fulfil all the criteria for the Christian God, in their own way. God's are a common idea.

Anyway, if I don't believe Jesus was the son of God, nor that God, or certainly Christian God exists, then why would I accept him?

You could accept him because of his teachings, and that the only way to the kingdom of heaven - or a kingdom with no war or violence is through loving your neighbour. You can accept without worshipping. Hindu's accept that Jesus is a prophet, Muslim's the same as (I think... someone confirm this please?) but all the same they don't worship him as the son of God, nor believe that he was the son of God.

See, I don't believe in it, so I have no choice. If I became a Christian in order to avoid eternal hell, it wouldn't fly. You have to love Jesus, etc. In order to love Jesus you have to believe he was the son of God. I don't, so I can't

In order to love someone you have to believe he was the son of God? That don't ring true... firstly, we're talking about the love for a friend not that towards a lover. So you could accept, and acknowledge, once again, that Jesus SAID he was the son of God, but disregard that piece and accept his other teachings. Afterall, there's more to Christianity than believing in one prophet who was apparently reincarnated from the dead.

So I don't reject Jesus because I'm a bad person, and I do not worship any other Gods. No false idols for me, matey boy.

You don't reject Jesus because you're a bad person. You are a bad person because of those other filthy habits of yours

God doesn't speak to me, he makes no attempt to get me to accept him. And if he does its far too subtle.

God talks to everyone. He can't make everyone listen.... I've heard lots of people say this, mostly to me or to other atheists. It's quite amusing actually... you get these 40 year old men, wearing dresses and collars walk up to you in the street and try to convert you. Especially if you're white. They tend to avoid ethnics for some reason. Can't understand why.

Anyway, that's off the point. God moves in mysterious ways is the other general answer, or that listening to him is a matter of belief. I can't argue against your own beliefs, and if I argue against mine I'll get confused and have an indentity crisis. Still, consider that other people say they have heard the voices of God (Joan d' Arc) and because of this gained much from it (Joan d' Arc helped win the french/english war if memory serves)

With me he is a victim of his own success. Gave me free will, gave me (some) intelligence. Gave me a yearning for knowledge. So its not enough for me to blindly believe in something without proof. There is no proof that I can see, so I turn to science for the answers, and science is founded on not accepting things without proof.

My non acceptence of God is not because of an evil or sinful nature, but because I'm using what I was given to find the answers he is not providing.

Science is belief. Albeit cleverly hidden belief. How much of science is gendaken experiements? Or theories. Look at black holes - do you doubt there existance? The proof to them is as sketchy as that towards god.

Or Tachyons - do you think they exist? Atoms? All of them are sketchily proved (as I've never seen an atom, I take it for granted they exist) or simply theory and not proved at all. Yet we don't seem to doubt them. Instead, we take them for granted. Is this any better than what Christian's do with their God?

Who gave you those things? You talk about what you were given, yet offer no explanations as to who gave the giving. Nor, it seems, have you established the missing step in evolution. It seems, as always, that Nature - similary to God - moves in mysterious ways.

What you going to say on judgement day?

Oh! Hi there God. Now I'm very sorry, but I haven't believed in you for the last few ears... could you just hurry up the rest of the queue please? I mean.. some of these people have been sitting around for about 20000 years waiting for you to turn up, and the queue IS really quite long! I mean... could you judge us all at the same time or something?

Then I will ask him to justify the millions of deaths caused by religion. The slaughter carried out in his name. The children abused by his Priests. Allowng his message to be the engine of more suffering than any other single event.

Welcome to freewill.. and misinterpretation. God can't control us (watch Bruce Almighty... good film for learning of God's powers) so he offers us choices. Some people do the right thing... most do the wrong thing, due to the temptation created in the original sin (I love that story!)

If he falls to his knees and begs forgiveness for not acting while all this evil was done in his name (I will make it clear there has been no evil commited in my name) I might forgive him and listen to his story.

Freewill.. again... and who says that God HAS knees? Other than the own image thing I suppose... And I'll be surprised if you have the time to listen to his story (Gen 1|1 "In the beginning when God created the universe") as it's lasted since before time began (in theory)

Or I'll just start to worship Odin to piss him off.

Compare Odin and God. Draw up a list of powers, and the appearances that either can form. They're pretty much the same. And as Odin is head god....... and God is God.... they could be one and the same. The only difference is you'll spend all eternity trying to kill the taxmen instead of wandering around looking at ladies in hell... Not that you'll go to hell of course, but the intent is probably enough to get you thrown into hell... Idolatry and all that.

If he still wont have it, I'll use the ace up my sleeve... 'So Goddy... can you make a rock you can't lift, Mr Omnipotent?'

The problem with that is that the rock will then be infinite, as God's power is infinite, meaning that the rock will occupy the space where you will be, and everywhere else, killing you so you won't get to see the rock. And God might have some problems killing off the universe as well... he'll have to spend anothe 6 days creating it so that we can stick our heads in the sand again

Never run over a rabbit? Did you secretly aim for it? Or killed a spider?

All Gods creatures.. great and small

Assuming you met God, he would probably just tell you that he didn't write any of that ****. Free will wrote that crap and fought those wars

We got stewardship over all animals... (Gen 1|28, blessd them, and said "Have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds and all the wild animals.") In other words... not his problem. It's your responsibility as a man to look after them. Not his fault you killed them

Chrisitianity has a route out.. as usual.

Spiders!

I knew they'd bring me down eventually.

Yep... something has to deflate that ego


As per usual.. someone posted on top of me

[fuddam]

This is what I'm saying!

There are countless examples of 'Evil God Theory' in the OT, and non-christians read this stuff and take it as face value. Soddom and Gomorrah and Lot are a perfect example. Lot is the one good man in the city, chosen by god, but when the crowd comes banging on his door he offers up his virgin daughters to be raped to protect his guests. He later get's drunk and rapes them himself. Someone who isn't christian would see this as a horrible story of an evil man protected by an evil god.

lazy, squire, lazy. Read those verses again. Show me WHERE GOD TOLD HIM TO OFFER HIS DAUGHTERS. Please. Also, please show me where, in any way, God required Lot's daughters to sleep with him.

See, you've gone and confused what a person did, with what God instructed. How would it be in any way consistent with all the Bible preaches, for God to condone rape, or for a father to behave that way to his children?

No, the Bible does not contain a contradiction there. YOU have not read it clearly.

Your assumption that 'God told him' to behave in such a way is akin to every action by any Jew in the OT, or Christian in the NT, being blessed by God. The truth is, whenever God speaks to someone, the Bible clearly states "God told X".

[fuddam]

Can a good man reject Christ? Is accepting Jesus into your life the only way you can truly be good?

There are no truely good athiests? Hindus? What about indians in the rain forrest, who have never heard of Christianity, or Jesus?

define good. am asking you seriously to do so.

And God is perfectly just, and absolutely loving. As I said in previous post, He judges each according to what they know. Your questions above imply an unjust sentencing to hell.

It's well worth appreciating that hell was NEVER intended for humankind. It was the place the satan and his legions were cast, out of heaven.
"I did not prepare this place for men, but all those who do not believe in me as their Savior and those who do not live according to my word will go there (Revelation 20:14)"

Anyway, if I don't believe Jesus was the son of God, nor that God, or certainly Christian God exists, then why would I accept him?

See, I don't believe in it, so I have no choice. If I became a Christian in order to avoid eternal hell, it wouldn't fly. You have to love Jesus, etc. In order to love Jesus you have to believe he was the son of God. I don't, so I can't.

agreed! but how one comes to know God is unique to the individual. For some, a gradual realisation, grounded in an intellectual response, for others an emotional, immediate, passionate conversion, for others they literally meet Christ face to face, for others in a sudden knowledge while sitting in a garden. You get the idea. The uniqueness lies in the uniqueness of each individual (history, life and so forth). I know of Muslims and Hindus who have gone to sleep muslim/ hindu, and had such powerful experiences of Christ in their dreams, that they awoke to immediate, personal knowledge of Christ, and WITHOUT ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. No teaching, preaching, prior experience.

And no, you don't *have* to love Jesus to become a Christian. BUT love certainly comes from becoming a Christian. It builds, as it does in any relationship.

God doesn't speak to me, he makes no attempt to get me to accept him. And if he does its far too subtle.

Not true. Who am I? Why am I in this thread? Who gave me the desire to see you full of joy, love, peace, freedom beyond your wildest imaginings? When I say anything pro-Christ on these forums, I am a mouthpiece for Him. Not because I am in any way worthy of being such a mouthpiece, or holy, or good, but because God chooses to use broken vessels to communicate. He could broadcast in neon dayglo across the clouds (and sometimes I wish He would), but in His infinite wisdom, He chooses to use ordinary sinners to communicate to the world.

[Stewart]

If you take the things people say in jest as straight, everyone would be an egomaniac, wouldn't you say, MediaBoy?

As you said you'd never seen any before, have a look at some atoms. Gold atoms to be exact.

[fuddam]

That's one part that gets me about religion, the thought that there is only one path, and that it's the path that whomever is talking about it is on, and that if you aren't on it you're doomed.

I am not in favour of religion. I am in favour of truth. And you must accept that there can only be one truth, in anything. That is the definition of truth. And so, when it comes to who and what God is, there must be only one truth. One cannot have contradictions (eg Jesus died and rose again vs he was not crucified and did not rise again)

This is the first one really, the way somebody who isn't born in the right place is automatically tagged as damned.

not true eg http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...everheard.html

Same goes for babies that die before baptism (original sin is not cleansed)

again, not true. One cannot be held accountable when one has no choice. The idea that dead babies go to hell is a catholic misconception. I have a daughter in heaven, who died in miscarriage, who my wife has seen standing alongside Christ.

Remember, God is a loving father, not an angry tyrant (no matter what anyone tent-shaped thinks ).

, those who don't confess before death, and suicide regardless of cause or reason. These are completely unfair situations, and undermine the idea of a loving God, since the afterlife of some is determined by blind luck.

There is no blind luck. Instead, there is a just and loving God who wants *everyone* to be with Him in heaven. That's why he offers *everyone* a free entrance ticket, through Christ. Unfortunately, many don't want that, and so choose to go to a place without Him.

Actually that follows to my second major problem with religion - the way that if God is who they say he is, the above notion of blind luck is actually nonsense and their ends were their fate. Why? If God created everything, knows everything and is all powerful, then he is capable of determining all future events for everything and has done in the past too. And when I say everything I mean everything. As far as you're concerned you have free will in every choice. As far as God is concerned you're just moving down a set path.

The entirety of existence from the dawn of time up until its end is just a big jigsaw on God's table, and he put it all together the moment it started - that is what omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence mean to me.

I feel like if I say any more at the moment I'm going to drag this too close to a debate about God's existence...it's just always seemed to me that if you accept that such a God could exist, it just doesn't work when you think it through.

I hear you. Predetermination vs free will etc. A very deep topic. it's now late (again) so let me point you at someone else, before I put more feet in my mouth:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrin...stination.html

the website has a lot of very useful material, pertinent at debunking a lot of assumptions about Christianity

[Clunk]

It's a sign.

[staffsMike]

Jesus.. you've officially been pimped!

[Main]

I am not in favour of religion. I am in favour of truth. And you must accept that there can only be one truth, in anything. That is the definition of truth. And so, when it comes to who and what God is, there must be only one truth.

Can't disagree with that. I guess the general annoying shouting matches of "X brand truth is better", both in religion and science, aren't ever really going to go away though. Annoyingly.

One cannot be held accountable when one has no choice. The idea that dead babies go to hell is a catholic misconception.

Thank you for the clarification, I was rather unsure about pre-baptism death since it's been a long while since I last remember dealing with it, although I'm pretty sure I've heard it mentioned here and there since it got brought up in school all those years ago. It just seems like such an injustice to imply that sort of thing. Yes it was a Catholic school and I am baptised Catholic...

I hear you. Predetermination vs free will etc. A very deep topic.

My head -> <- Philosophy
But always a good topic for discussion

[mediaboy]

Meh.. Fuddam got here before I did...

Time to liven up my day and post some questions


Reference|Question

Gen 1|1 God creates the universe. So was God there before the universe, or was he created at the same time as it? Who created God?

Gen 2|8 Where's Eden now?

Gen 3|1 If the snake was created by God, and animals have no freewill (as shown in the early chapters of Genesis - only humans were given freewill), does this mean that the snake was chosen and impelled by God to tempt humans in to sinning, thereby making God responsible for sin?

Gen 2|17 God lies to his people. In Exo 20, God instructs them not to lie. Does this not make God a sinner, and therefore not worthy of living in heaven?

Gen 3|11-13 If God is allpresent and allknowing then why does he not know why the women ate the apple and compelled Adam into doing so?

Gen 3|16-19 Is what God does to Adam and Eve comparable to what they did? Doesn't this mean that God is not better than humans and is, once again, breaking commandments that he sets down later in Lev and Exo?

Gen 3|21 Why does God now help Adam and Eve after he has punished them?

Gen 3|22 Is the mention of "one of us" implying the existance of the Trinity this early in the bible? And also, as we are like them, and look like them and act like them does this not mean that we are, in the end, Gods?

Gen 4|9 God once again asks someone something. Isn't this a weakening of their faith in him, as he is showing that he is not allpresent and allknowing? Why does God do this?

Gen 4|17 Did Cain marry Eve or his sister? As only Adam, Eve and Cain are left in the world at this point (as God has finished creating the world and all animals upon it's surface) I presume that he committed incest. Isn't this going against God's rules that he sets down later, or are you saying that God's rules only become rules when he says they are, and until Exo/Lev that everyone was sinless because they couldn't commit any sins against the will of God because the will of God was not known?

Gen 4|25-26 Seth is the name of the Egyptian God of destruction, or kills Horus, his brother. Did the early Jews use this name to convert Egyptians into Judaism?

Gen 5|4-32 Adam lived to nearly 1000 years? Please.. tell us the secret of eternal life someone! Seth got to 912 years, Kenan got to 910, Mahalalel 895 and Noah was still making children at 500, presumably with his wife. How is this possible?

I'll post more later