Fuddam, A Few Moments Of Your Time Please.

[fuddam]

Would you have a prolbem with slavery? There is plenty of evidence that this was acceptable in The New Testament. Why after the coming of Christ was this practice still legal and acceptable? Why had Christ not made it absolutely clear that it wasn't acceptable? He may have done away with the old requirements but his newer ones weren't much cop compared with modern standards.

Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live

Gal 3:26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

John 13:34 “I give you a new commandment – to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another"

For me, that's pretty much incompatible with slavery. And that's just skimming the subject.

That's why there are so many interpretations and arguments about it. Why does the Catholic church accept evolution and others not? One must believe that Genesis is literal the other not. The problem with these books is that they are not straight forward and that leads them open to interpretation. Who are you to say that your interpretation is the correct one? Why must one already believe in order to be able to the right interpretation and therefore reach the correct conclusions. Surely anyone should be able to read the Bible and come to the same conclusions without prior knowledge. If I were setting out a manual the last thing I'd want would be for the instructions to be unclear, which is exactly what the Bible is.

nope. the foundations of Christianity are the same for all denominations. It's in the details that debate arises, the interpretation you resent. Remember we are dealing with different contexts, languages, cultures etc. You want a biblical declaration of human rights? Well, all the rights are in there, if you look.

See bold. And there you go, you ARE cherry picking! Show me where it tells you what you should believe in 21st Century Britain as opposed to 19th Century Britain or for that , matter 1066AD. Which parts will be applicable in the 25th Century and why? Are different countries expected to have the same standards and if so what are they?

said this already. I am a Christian, not a Jew. The OT LAW is meant for Jews (thought the OT has much more to offer than law, which is why it is not simply a legal document), and the NT is where my guidance lies. Jesus, as before, is the heart of Christianity, and it is His example and dictates that I follow. The NT applies to all people, all nations, all cultures. No difference in application.

Secondly, if you believe all of it, Do you believe that the Earth is a flat circle with a solid sky (heavens) above, that requires opening for things to pass through, upon which god can roam? Is the Earth immovable and fixed? Is the moon a light? Or do you think that those parts should be discarded? If you do think that these parts should be discarded now, at which point in history should they have been chosen NOT to apply, bearing in mind those people doing the interpreting were living in their day same as you are now?

lol. lazy research, for you.

The Bible teaches that the Earth is ROUND. The Bible also teaches in that the Earth is suspended in space.

The Old Testament prophet ISAIAH (circa 700 B.C.) quotes as follows:

"It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE* of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." --Isaiah 40:22

*Circle=Hebrew "chuwg",meaning "sphere"

In addition to that, Job (circa 1,800 B.C.)speaks of his Maker as follows:

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

[fuddam]

Since the evidence tells us Jesus is a fictional charactor

yep, again you trot out that tired allegation.

ok, some quick responses:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...ml#Historicity

http://www.bethinking.org/bible-jesu...esus-exist.htm

TeePee, am truly curious as to your resentment of Christ. Seriously, I don't see someone who really wants to know the truth, but someone who has a grudge, and will use whatever means to substantiate that grudge. Of course, it's possible I'm mistaken, but if that is true, am curious then why you are such a hardliner. You claim to be a man of science, but appear to have little time for historical analysis, for current academic opinion, and instead rely on smoke and mirrors, on myth, as ironic as that is.

I've been praying for you for some time, and will continue to do so, no matter how much you laugh at / resent that prayer.

[TeePee]

So you who say there are no miss-translations are now saying circle is a miss-translation of sphere?

And how is Gal 3:26, which states that the difference between slave and free is like man or woman, and Jew or Greek, not condoning slavery?

Luke 12:45-48 and Ephesians 6:5-9 should would be worth your reading.

[RedPutty]

The Bible teaches that the Earth is ROUND. The Bible also teaches in that the Earth is suspended in space.

a circle is not a sphere. In any case the bible is also full of "the corners of the earth" and the "ends of the earth" - there is no way you could describe a sphere as having ends.

The New Testament is a ragtag assorted and pre-selected set of books written as many as hundreds of years later than Jesus actually lived and chosen by the bunch of powerful men at the time to be their approved set because it said what they wanted.

As for including the old testament - christians love including it and studying it (much more blood violence and sex in it!) but will dismiss it in a second when anyone brings up a flaw in it.

[TeePee]

I rely on nothing but reliable historical analysis and current academic opinion.
We've discussed the non-existent evidence and the few widley known forgeries before and all the totally unobjective christian websites you can link to can't make them real. As I said then, accuracies regarding the civil war in 'Goone With the Wind' do not make Scarlet O'Hara real.
There is no reliable evidence for the existence of Jesus.

I have no resentment towards a fictional charactor, nor toward the majority of happy little christians. I generally like christians, which is why the bible should be changed so they stop getting such a bad reputation!

[TeePee]

lazy, squire, lazy. Read those verses again. Show me WHERE GOD TOLD HIM TO OFFER HIS DAUGHTERS. Please. Also, please show me where, in any way, God required Lot's daughters to sleep with him.

See, you've gone and confused what a person did, with what God instructed. How would it be in any way consistent with all the Bible preaches, for God to condone rape, or for a father to behave that way to his children?

No, the Bible does not contain a contradiction there. YOU have not read it clearly.

Your assumption that 'God told him' to behave in such a way is akin to every action by any Jew in the OT, or Christian in the NT, being blessed by God. The truth is, whenever God speaks to someone, the Bible clearly states "God told X".

Not at all, I never assumed 'god' (or the voices in his head) told him to do something! Only that the bible says this is the only righteous man in a city of sin, and he's a mysogynistic child-rapist.

[Whiternoise]

don't confuse what the church has done (human error etc) with what the bible teaches. Not always one and the same, unfortunately.

Sorry i wasn't confusing them (i gathered there's no verse in the Bible that says "and ye shall see the Earth is flat, unless thou holdeth a ruler up to the horizon"), it was a genuine question i thouhgt. How, as a Christian do you view the Church in general altering it's views on life the universe and everything to fit the current level of knowledge - even if it was radically opposed to it before?

Although quick question about that one, the Bible is a bit older than when the populous of the world suddenly decided that the Earth was round, and yet it claims it's a sphere?

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm an interesting take on it..

[iranu]

lol. lazy research, for you.

The Bible teaches that the Earth is ROUND. The Bible also teaches in that the Earth is suspended in space.

The Old Testament prophet ISAIAH (circa 700 B.C.) quotes as follows:

"It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE* of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." --Isaiah 40:22

*Circle=Hebrew "chuwg",meaning "sphere"

In addition to that, Job (circa 1,800 B.C.)speaks of his Maker as follows:

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

Just very quicky - firstly you didn't answer my questions by replying out of context. And yes I can quote passages that show the earth as being fixed. No mention of a force which we call gravity then? Hardly hanging. Hanging by the very word implies fixed.

Secondly I was anything but lazy. I searched and made sure I knew exactly what I knew you would quote in response to the flat earth/circle suggestion.

chuwg does indeed mean circle but it does not translate as sphere. That is your doing and again shows how you choose to interpret the passage. There is a perfectly good word to describe a sphere in Hebrew and that word Kaduwr which translates as ball. No we can argue which was used but either way it shows that there has been a mistranslation. Again proving the OP's point.

So yes the bible teaches that the earth is round, but it teaches that it's round like a circle not round like a sphere unless you know Hebrew and the exact meaning of the words at the time. How can anyone do this? Imagine if in the year 2500 all Christians were extinct and all bar one copy of the bible existed in English. If a person who had never heard of Christianity were to read that passage what meaning would they derive from it? Circle or sphere? This highlights the OP's point. You may choose to believe that the writer meant ball or sphere when he used the word for circle. You may choose to believe that circle means sphere in this context. I choose otherwise. Who is right and who is wrong? Both can be seen as right or wrong so you can't be telling me that the message is clear, it's not.

Christianity needs teaching and then explaining and then worse still an interpretation of the book it's based on. If you just read the book alone and nothing else it is not worth basing your life on, it's far too vague and ambiguous which you are proving.

Please can you point out which parts of the bible are to be taken literally and which metaphorically. I'll leave the why for now.

[mediaboy]

I rely on nothing but reliable historical analysis and current academic opinion.

BUt the "reliable" historical analysis relies on your feeling that the evidence IS reliable. It doesn't matter how many links that I, fuddam or indeed anyone posts here as - in the end - it is your decision whether or not to trust the evidence that we put before you.

As for a quick academic opinion.. how about this.. from einstein.
"To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness."

Einstein believed in a God, he said that the more he found out about the world the more that he found to support his views. However, current academic opinion is entirely different I suppose. Although, naturally, you will have to post reliable evidence to support whatever opinions you put forward... or link to it.

We've discussed the non-existent evidence and the few widley known forgeries before and all the totally unobjective christian websites you can link to can't make them real. As I said then, accuracies regarding the civil war in 'Goone With the Wind' do not make Scarlet O'Hara real.
There is no reliable evidence for the existence of Jesus.

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn44/existence.htm

Try reading this one maybe. There's a few others, but you're unlikely to read more than one or two.

I have no resentment towards a fictional charactor, nor toward the majority of happy little christians. I generally like christians, which is why the bible should be changed so they stop getting such a bad reputation!

Christian's only have a bad reputation because non-christian's give them it. Such as this thread seems to be partly doing.

I say muslim to a 14 yr old and their first thought is "terrorist." I say Christian and their first thought is "God." It's sterotypes, and from what I've seen of your posting, and your way of posting, you are putting christians into your own stereotype and aggressively defending your points of view.

Maybe taking the hints from Fuddam about loving everyone should be taken more literally.

[TeePee]

Einstein:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

Very difficult fellow to pin down. I suspect the reality is that he struggled through being a very spiritual person, without the more modern concept that spirituality and religion are very separate ideas. Religion is not required for spirituality.

As for the existence of Jesus, I find very few credible sources on the web. Too many christians and atheists who lack objectivity. An interesting and objective link would be: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...suspuzzle.html
Or the book: http://www.amazon.com/Deconstructing.../dp/1573927589

[Koolpc]

All this back and fo, believer or non believer is just pointless!!

Whatever anyone thinks of the bible or any other religious book, i believe in god and that is that. If you disagree or don't want to believe or can't believe then that is up to you. Have a good life, live and let live.

[mediaboy]

A good attitude to have.

But that's not letting Stewart have his epiphany

[Koolpc]

Stewart justs like to have a good argument!! lol

[mediaboy]

Well yeah I know.. but we shuold let him have his chance.

After all, as a good atheist I don't see whose going to stop him from making a choice

[Koolpc]

You never know, he may convert! He might wake up one morning and decide that he does believe in god!!

[Stewart]

KoolPC, noone is trying to get you to not believe in God.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?


You can't seem to get you head around the fact that this thread, when you are not littering it with classic posts such as 'this is a good thread', is for the discussion of the points I raised in my opening post, and anything else that leads to.

Noone is interested if you believe in God or not, and noone is interested in trying to change your mind.

You have already shown, in the drugs thread, that you are stuck in your ways, and (no offense) incapable of adult discussion of anything you disagree with.

So yes, you believe in God. If all you want to do is say that over and over again, please start a thread of your own to do so.

Finally, if I 'just wanted to have an argument' my opening post could have been a lot shorter. Something along the lines of the sort of nonsense you usually post. I didn't, however, so I put some effort into it.

Now, either stop shouting 'I believe in God' over and over again for no reason, or stop posting in this thread.

I suggest you go and educate yourself on the issue of drug use in modern society... after humiliating yourself in front of half the forums the last time this was a topic of discussion, you could spend your time in worse ways.

This is an interesting thread.