Global Warming - something or nothing?

[TAKTAK]

I was under the illusion that "organic" meant no chemicals

obviously it's not all organic food producers that uses the chemicals.. but they are entitled to.. and lots of people do use them...

i found out through my dad

[Agent]

but this, was at least in my opinion the most extream weather ive seen in the UK. I dont know how to explain it, apart from it was quite wet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKPop...eature=related

im not saying i know what is causing it, just that, from my persective the weather has changed a lot in a short space of time.

Whats a "short space of time" though?
You linked Sheffield in that video - to quote WP

The Don has produced a number of notable floods. On the night of 26 October 1536 a sudden rise in the level of the river prevented the forces of the Pilgrimage of Grace from crossing the river at Doncaster, forcing them to enter into negotiations with Henry VIII's forces.[1][2] The Great Sheffield Flood, which occurred on 11 March 1864 following the collapse of the Dale Dike Dam, destroyed 800 houses, and killed 270 people.[3]

The Don was also one of the rivers that flooded during the 2007 United Kingdom floods. Record levels of rainfall resulted in flooding in Sheffield and Rotherham with two people dying in the area, whilst in the Denaby Main/Mexborough area, the river rose and burst its banks onto the Doncaster road bridge, also flooding the railway tracks situated to the north of the river. The nearby canal overfilled, with some parts of the Don flowing into the canal, resulting in a great increase in water area, and leading to this combined body of water overflowing towards the houses near pastures.

So we have on record floods in that area going back to 1536 and several times after.
It was known to flood hundreds of years ago. Do you think this incident was Global Warming related?

There is even a page for it at the environment agency: http://environment-agency.wales.gov....ng/123FWFRW534
Its a known flood area and has been for a long time.

[j1979]

Whats a "short space of time" though?
You linked Sheffield in that video - to quote WP



So we have on record floods in that area going back to 1536 and several times after.
It was known to flood hundreds of years ago. Do you think this incident was Global Warming related?

There is even a page for it at the environment agency: http://environment-agency.wales.gov....ng/123FWFRW534
Its a known flood area and has been for a long time.

The Great Sheffield Flood was a man made dam that burst was'nt it. and the don has never burst its banks so high up, in the past its always been on lower ground, away from the city centre

[Zhaoman]

I seriously cannot fathom how members of a scientific community like Hexus (am I wrong?) can possibly go as far as to ignore established facts and drive an already pointless argument even further away from the crux of the matter.

Are levels of CO2 higher than they ever have been since current technologies allow us to probe?

Are we going to see dramatic change in the near-future with regards to climate?

Should we do something about it?

The established consensus among the scientific community around the world unfortunately is yes. This isn't about bad civil engineering or organic foods. How can anyone in their right minds ignore such well established facts and go on to say that we should just lie back and let it sort itself out?

[NovaSphere]

I don't understand how there can be so many ignorant people... lol

Why most people wait once it's to late, once it hits them directly? They need to see it happen before they will start to act?

[Agent]

The Great Sheffield Flood was a man made dam that burst was'nt it. and the don has never burst its banks so high up, in the past its always been on lower ground, away from the city centre

I said the Don flooded, which is in the area of the video you linked. Again according to WP:

The Don was also one of the rivers that flooded during the 2007 United Kingdom floods. Record levels of rainfall resulted in flooding in Sheffield and Rotherham with two people dying in the area, whilst in the Denaby Main/Mexborough area, the river rose and burst its banks onto the Doncaster road bridge, also flooding the railway tracks situated to the north of the river. The nearby canal overfilled, with some parts of the Don flowing into the canal, resulting in a great increase in water area, and leading to this combined body of water overflowing towards the houses near pastures.

The entire area is known to flood. Using it as a case to help support global warming seems a bit strange. If a man made dam burst as you said above, that drives the 'support' for it away even further.

[Agent]

I seriously cannot fathom how members of a scientific community like Hexus (am I wrong?) can possibly go as far as to ignore established facts and drive an already pointless argument even further away from the crux of the matter.

Scientific 'facts' are made by arguing, discarding the bad ideas and reformulating existing ones. If someone wants to challenge what's widely regarded as a 'fact' let them. There are only 2 possible outcomes:

1)They disprove or find a fault in the existing model of understanding
2)They fail to disprove or bring anything new to light in the area

If you went back in time arguing that the world was spherical was "pointless" too.

Suggesting that people can not question current 'facts' is no worse than people disregarding them totally.

[Agent]

I don't understand how there can be so many ignorant people... lol

Perhaps quote the people you think are being ignorant and put your point forward, as opposed to sitting on a high horse and telling people that they are wrong without backing it up?

[steve threlfall]

I don't understand how there can be so many ignorant people... lol

Why most people wait once it's to late, once it hits them directly? They need to see it happen before they will start to act?

Read tabloids much?

[j1979]

I said the Don flooded, which is in the area of the video you linked. Again according to WP:



The entire area is known to flood. Using it as a case to help support global warming seems a bit strange. If a man made dam burst as you said above, that drives the 'support' for it away even further.

flood warnings.. arnt the same as banks bursting and a man drowning as his car was washed away with him in it.

http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/S...rs_129994.html

worst flood in 150 years, and 150 years ago it was a man made disaster. and it was,nt at the wicker.

[j1979]

Read tabloids much?

try national geographic

http://science.nationalgeographic.co...g/gw-real.html

[Agent]

flood warnings.. arnt the same as banks bursting and a man drowning as his car was washed away with him in it.

Indeed - but when a river bursts its banks, it floods. If you build on the surrounding floodplain area its not hard to figure out what's going to happen....

http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/S...rs_129994.html

worst flood in 150 years, and 150 years ago it was a man made disaster. and it was,nt a the wicker.

From the very article you linked:

Serious questions need to be asked as to why the UK's fifth largest city has such an inadequate drainage system

He seems to be blaming the cities inability to handle the water?....remember the Don flooded causing a major surge of water to all the surrounding areas.

Read through my past replies to you and see what I'm getting at: A lot of floods in the UK happen because the councils are still / were building on a floodplains. People then look to blame other causes and totally ignore that they have brought a house in a high risk area. One area flooding can have a major knock on effect down the line (Just look at the River Seven, It takes several days for it to go down stream).
Of course, I'm not saying this is the case for every flood - that would be stupid. But lets just keep in mind that the vast majority of floods on the UK are preventable by proper planning (like not building houses in stupid places) - Thats all I'm trying to convey here.

[j1979]

He seems to be blaming the cities inability to handle the water?....remember the Don flooded causing a major surge of water to all the surrounding areas.

the video from youtube shows water flowing to the Don. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKPop...eature=related

Read through my past replies to you and see what I'm getting at: A lot of floods in the UK happen because the councils are still / were building on a floodplains. People then look to blame other causes and totally ignore that they have brought a house in a high risk area. One area flooding can have a major knock on effect down the line (Just look at the River Seven, It takes several days for it to go down stream).
Of course, I'm not saying this is the case for every flood - that would be stupid. But lets just keep in mind that the vast majority of floods on the UK are preventable by proper planning (like not building houses in stupid places) - Thats all I'm trying to convey here.

OK agent it hardly rained at all that day! and it was all due to poor drainage??? the wicker is NOT a flood plain!

what the man and yourself fail to understand is that were is supposed to drian to ? the lowest point of the city center IE the river don, is already full! it was'nt jst the river Don, it was the Sheaf, Rivlin, Loxley. and all the brooks and streams the all burst.

It has never happened before and been recorded by humans!

[Zhaoman]

Agent, please could you quote my whole reply rather than just the introduction. I completely agree that scientific "facts" are "made" by arguing. I am not saying that people shouldn't question established beliefs. That would be the complete opposite of science and innovation.

My problem with this thread is that people seem to support a view that is not shared among the vast majority of the scientific community around the world. I personally couldn't care less if this is the end of an ice-age or if its the end of the world. What I am concerned about however is the fact that nearly every scientific society has agreed on the fact that the Earth is heating up, along with the highest levels of CO2 for as far back as we can tell. Surely based on these 2 facts alone we can deduce that something is not right. Whatever the cause, we need to do something or the world is not going to look the same.

I would like to hear a valid argument as to why global warming should not be an issue for our generation instead of rants about bad civil engineering.

[koocha]

try national geographic

http://science.nationalgeographic.co...g/gw-real.html

From the link:

The warming of Earth's surface and oceans over the past century is very well documented, and climate research shows that most of the warming in the past half century results from manmade greenhouse gases.

But what about before records were made? Where's the proof it was manmade greenhouse gases?

[j1979]

From the link:



But what about before records were made? Where's the proof it was manmade greenhouse gases?

well im not sure what your saying again! if your saying where is the proof of man-made global warming (before humans wrote down events of weather), then humans did not produce greenhouses gases in any real quantity before records were kept. It was only after the industrial age that it has had an impact, and its only very recently that the developing world has followed the west and become an industrial monster. India/china alone make up over 30% of world population.

but if you want some evidence that this is for real, feel free to read.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/sc....02/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4120755.stm

http://www.livescience.com/environme...earth_hot.html

http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Temp/2004.htm

people need to get real, this is not scare tactics or just to sell more papers. Nor is it to feed a political agenda (although some will jump on the bandwagon for personal gain). Our leaders may well use global warming as an excuse to have UN sanctions imposed on China in the future. Global warming will force our country to become more efficient, thus producing a higher GDP. None of this means this is not for real because it is. The problem and why so many people refuse to listen is because, it will be almost impossible to tackle the problem of global warming and continue global capitalism. The two just wont work together. Certain groups really dont want to admit this is happening.

People who say, its scaremongering are living in a dream world. Just like people who chose to believe the bible/quran (0 evidence) over The Origin of Species (infinite evidence). So heres a news flash, the earth is not a few thousand years old, its not flat, the bible/quran are just stories, the sun does not revolve around the earth .. and man made Global Warming is very real.

As for the argument that the earth has always gone through periods of warming and cooling, yes it has. But this has always been in a symbiotic relationship with nature, there has always been a steady pattern. And when this pattern has been broken. IE when vast amounts of gases have been released, the earths climate goes haywire. Only really happens in nature with large amounts of volcanic activity (which has not happened within the life span of Homo sapiens) triggers a chain reaction.

http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volc...e_effects.html

Also humans have are eating into the earths natural buffer for CO2 , the rain forests. The canopy of the Amazon rain forest is getting taller, as trees grow bigger due to the higher PPM of CO2 in the atmosphere. But this growth of the rainforest canopy is now slowing, suggesting one of two things, that CO2 levels are dropping or that trees on earth have not evolved to take advantage of current levels of CO2. The later must be true because we can see that CO2 levels have not dropped.

Then you also have to take into account that the permafrost is melting in Alaska and Siberia. This is permafrost that did not melt in the period between the two most recent ice ages. But is melting now. The ice contains tonnes of methane ...opps and also helps reflect the suns energy back into space... then there is methane hydrate
the gas which possibly caused the Permian-Triassic extinction event

the ice caps too.



as for extinction in general (not weather related), the pattern is clear, mass extinction occurs just after man arrives in any area of the world. smilodon, woolly mammoth, giant moa (and any other moa for that matter), Haast's Eagle, river dolphins, giganto pithicus (king kong) these are just the ones you might have herd of

mass extinction follows man

Dont get me wrong, i dont think this will be Armageddon, but it is happening, and i also believe that its too late to stop it already.

You may think im all doom and gloom, and you'd be right. Also sorry for the rant, which Agent will no doubt pick apart... tomorrow sometime.