end of capitalism.

[steve threlfall]

There's no arguing with some people, and for that reason alone - I'm out.....

Im going to make you an offer. I'll give you £5 for a 95% equity stake in you're company. Thats a great deal, you would be mad to turn it down!

[menthel]

[QUOTE=menthel;1528276]Sorry, where on earth did you pull that from- he sounds like a conservative with VERY, VERY strong capitalist views but nothing more extreme than that.
[QUOTE]

It would seem I had you nearly right, TheAnimus!

[TheAnimus]

sorry mate i said GPs not Doctors!

and all the GPs work could be done by other medical staff! like i said its hypothetical anyway.

your come back cant be "we will hire more Binmen". the job just doesn't get done in the hypothetical situation.

If you've been able to understand my last post (which did while away a lot of my lunch hour, luckily i've got very boring tests to run!).

Right, Doctors are a subset of General Practitioners. And No, they're work can't be done by other medical staff, a consultant radiologist whilst able to prescribe any drug doesn't have the broad knowledge that a GP should possess.

And why dosen't hiring more Binmen get done in this hypothetical? If we assume there are only 5 working people on our planet. Bin men get £15k GPs, £75k, it might work, but if you then said Bin men get £20k GPs get £20k, try and find someone willing to do the extra work? Its not going to happen, and if all 5 are binmen, you need to tempt, only just enough (no more, thats waste and ineffeciency in a freemarket should be evolved out) until the gap is big enough to tempt people accross.

So going back to the hypothetical quoted, if that scenario happened, yes more bin men would be hired, or the army would come in, or even volenteers from the community who are sick of the smell. Why wouldn't they? They exist don't they? If GPs striked, where would all the replacements come from? Its not so easy to find. Hence they get paid more.

The same way people who clean sewage pipes get paid more because few people want to do it, even thou there are plenty of people who possess all the skills, people just don't like doing it, so they have to be paid more otherwise noone would do it.

[Steve A]

I think i would still vote Labour but only if Brown wasn't at the helm.

[TheAnimus]

Sorry, where on earth did you pull that from- he sounds like a conservative with VERY, VERY strong capitalist views but nothing more extreme than that.

It would seem I had you nearly right, TheAnimus!

I really never come across a system that makes me think that capitalisim when done properly isn't the best solution.

It has short comings when conduct isn't fair or is particularly one sided, when people con people etc. But laws can be created to address these short comings and keep the playing feild fair, a classic example is the APR, the in US (which let us not forget has seen hundreds of thousands of complex loans sold to home owners, which where cons) they don't have such a simple idea. Compound interest isn't understood by most people, they can't compare and contrast different peoples loan offers.

So they got shafted onto mortgages by sales people, who didn't care that they wouldn't be able to repay them, they where looking for a fast buck, which they made, but they weren't conscious of the damage that would ensue.

Your never going to be able to do anything about these little sh!ts, but you can legislate in a way that levels the playing feild, and tries to prevent problems that fit the classic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

So i'm conscious of the failings, its just the best solution we have by a long way, and the way to address the shortcomings we've seen of late (the US housing bubble burst which has lead to the miss trust between banks, the dispising of ratings agencys, etc) could easily be prevented from happening again by property indecies. The Subprime Solution is a coffee table fodder explanation of one persons idea how.

[j1979]

There was an intresting case study done on a major trainer manafacturer in Vietnam i was reading whilst at uni, here Nike where paying something like $0.30 an hour. This ment the labour cost in a trainer worth $100 retail was less than $1. I bet your going to be thinking OMG they should pay them more. In fact no, they shouldn't be. Quite the reverse, they had caused such problem to the local economy because everyone wanted to work there, their average wage was simply too high for the local population to absorb. Teachers and Doctors could all earn more at the factory. Why on earth work a much harder job, where you get to see your kids less, when you can have an easyer job, and spend more time with your kids. The result was the local economy around it collapsed, the only surviving economy was a service based one, devoted to serving those who worked at the factory, as they where the only ones who could afford the services.

yes i see, so why didn't nike support the whole community? they can surely afford it, why dont they help the community to develop?

because they are ruthless thats why!

and fair trade is a marketing tool but like i said its a small step in the right direction.

[menthel]

I really never come across a system that makes me think that capitalisim when done properly isn't the best solution.

It has short comings when conduct isn't fair or is particularly one sided, when people con people etc. But laws can be created to address these short comings and keep the playing feild fair, a classic example is the APR, the in US (which let us not forget has seen hundreds of thousands of complex loans sold to home owners, which where cons) they don't have such a simple idea. Compound interest isn't understood by most people, they can't compare and contrast different peoples loan offers.

So they got shafted onto mortgages by sales people, who didn't care that they wouldn't be able to repay them, they where looking for a fast buck, which they made, but they weren't conscious of the damage that would ensue.

Your never going to be able to do anything about these little sh!ts, but you can legislate in a way that levels the playing feild, and tries to prevent problems that fit the classic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

So i'm conscious of the failings, its just the best solution we have by a long way, and the way to address the shortcomings we've seen of late (the US housing bubble burst which has lead to the miss trust between banks, the dispising of ratings agencys, etc) could easily be prevented from happening again by property indecies. The Subprime Solution is a coffee table fodder explanation of one persons idea how.

I have to agree. I am all for what I would call ethical capitalism. Then again, I spend a lot of time thinking about ethics and ethical problems so I may be slightly preoccupied.

[TheAnimus]

yes i see, so why didn't nike support the whole community? they can surely afford it, why dont they help the community to develop?

because they are ruthless thats why!

and fair trade is a marketing tool but like i said its a small step in the right direction.

Please read the rest of my post before commenting.

Namely the CAP, and coal points.

[j1979]

a consultant radiologist whilst able to prescribe any drug doesn't have the broad knowledge that a GP should possess.

no but google and a big medical book does.

if you suffer from a condition for a long time it will soon become clear that you will probably know more about the condition than your GP.

also id like to point out here, i dont think GP and Binmen should be paid the same, but i would like to see a smaller gap!

[b0redom]

ROFLMAO

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that you'd trust a doctor who looked up your symptoms on Google?

Honestly, are you a troll?

[TheAnimus]

no but google and a big medical book does.

if you suffer from a condition for a long time it will soon become clear that you will probably know more about the condition than your GP.

also id like to point out here, i dont think GP and Binmen should be paid the same, but i would like to see a smaller gap!

I'd like to hope one day technology (as a keen technologist) can be used to address the poverty gap we see around the world with access to medical resources.

But with a view like that, i'm going to have to follow in the footsteps and say

I'm out.

(and we're rapidly running out of good dragons... I wanted to be Peter Jones, or the scotish one)

[j1979]

ROFLMAO

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that you'd trust a doctor who looked up your symptoms on Google?

Honestly, are you a troll?

thought you were out?

and yes my current GP does!


after the last 3 misdiagnosed me for years with excema when i have got psoriasis.

[j1979]

But with a view like that, i'm going to have to follow in the footsteps and say

I'm out.

(and we're rapidly running out of good dragons... I wanted to be Peter Jones, or the scotish one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQRfBAzSzo

your all falling faster than lahman bros!

[TooNice]

get a grip, im talking about a hypothetical world!!

A hypothetical world where there are no substitute for binmen/a binmen strike. I don't see the point in that. Such scenario has no practical use given a key component determining the value (and pay) of a profession is the availability of substitutes.

And no, I wouldn't trust any medical staff to do the job of a GP, nor have I caught my GP Googling during his job. If you don't trust your GP and find him/her incompetent, you can should just go to another one. I am sure I am not the only one who is reasonably happy with my GP.

There are no perfect systems, but I'd rather take my chances with a capitalist leaning system than a socialist leaning one. With the former, there is at least a chance for a hard working and/or talented individual to find the opportunity to move upward. With the later, you will not end up with 'everyone leading a comfortable life', but 'everyone leading a mediocre one', unless you can somehow find a solution to convince people under such system to be as productive as they would have been under a capitalist system.

[j1979]

A hypothetical world where there are no substitute for binmen/a binmen strike. I don't see the point in that. Such scenario has no practical use given a key component determining the value (and pay) of a profession is the availability of substitutes.

And no, I wouldn't trust any medical staff to do the job of a GP, nor have I caught my GP Googling during his job. If you don't trust your GP and find him/her incompetent, you can should just go to another one. I am sure I am not the only one who is reasonably happy with my GP.

im not worried about my gp googling, or using netdoctor, or any other useful tool. im saying that i could do the job for myself, with the tools of the internet. i pritty much only need the GP for a second opinion, a prescription or referral to a specialist.

i dont think being a GP takes anything more than dedication and slightly above average intelligence. The thought that the people who become GPs are somehow better than those who become binmen, is a step to national socialism.

Whilst in some ways its distastful to say some people are more useful to society than others, its a simple fact that THEY ARE!

As theAnimus said in his post that these people are worth less, they are not. the jobs that they chose to do may well take a higher level of dedication, and i agree they should be paid more, but my opinion is that the gap is too large. This huge difference coupled with lending to people who dont really earn enough to own their own homes is why we have the Sub-prime mortgage credit crunch from the US.

and my whole binmen / GP example was to try and point out that every person plays a part in the system, and if you take one element away it will cause problems.

[floppybootstomp]

u sound a bit like noel coward. (no offense)

Its not hatred of the super rich, as you will see from my last post and what i would do with em. I clothed them, fed them and gave them some entertainment. id just like to see them have a tougher life or everyone else to have it as easy as them.

the super rich aren't likely to be going cold this winter because they cant afford their gas bill, or spending a night in a cell because they cant afford the council tax, they wont have to get a bus that stinks of piss, or live in a rented shared house, go food shopping every other day after work because thats all you can carry in one go on public transport. they wont have to think twice about getting married due to financial worries, or even raise a family. they wont have to buy dairy milks for xmas presents again. They wont have to bypass social events due to funds and lack of time. they wont have to cut the mouldy parts off food or wear clothes that have holes in. They wont even have to count their penies because they can afford the 10% tax that is charged by the coin sorting machines in supermarkets. they generally wont have to worry about that much in all honesty. The only major financial worry they have is how to keep hold of their money.

im not complaining, i just think we need a fairer tax system, or capped earnings.

Because a £1200 council tax bill is just under 10% of my wages.

20% income tax (after the personal allowance). 1% tv license, £840 on a bus pass 7%. room in a shared house 25% bills 15%. i still manage to save money (desperately awaiting the house price crash) . so im not pleading poverty by any means (even though im well below the official poverty line) i would just like a fairer world, where the poor are less poor and the rich are less rich.

am i only saying this because of my situation? probably.


edit: ohh and i am aware that im a lot better off than the majority of the world population, before theAnimus throws that at me.

My goodness, this is a lively debate isn't it?

I haven't contributed for 24 hours or more so thought I'd chime in.

j1979, if nothing else, you're honest. From your posts we can see your soul laid bare.

This is not necessarily a good thing because this world is full of people with less than honourable intentions. Our Animus doesn't seem to be a bad soul either despite his declaration that he's a seething cauldron of hatred, lol

j1979, looking at what you've written, all your hopes, fears, ideas, suggestions, just about everything, seem to be based on hate. This is not a good thing.

Your argument/point of view and general rantings are eternal and age old. They come from a point of view of somebody working class and not happy with their lot.

To disguise their frustration at not being part of some privileged inner circle or super rich club your type choose to slag off the better-off sections of society then try and disguise your hatred and envy by preaching equality and fairness. It doesn't wash.

And by way of mentioning, I am very much working class, Birkenhead born son of a docker.

The bottom line is you're poxed off because you don't earn as much as those Hooray Henrys on the Stock Exchange, for example. You may want to try changing your mindset. Ever thought of working for yourself rather than being a wage-slave? Then you're controlled by nobody but yourself.

And if you can't face that challenge you have no right to moan.

You have to realise that's the way it is, that's the way it's always been and that's probably the way it will stay. Those who try and change the very human nature of the workforce are doomed to failure (see Wikipedia entries under 'Communism')

Your ideals are fine, though unworkable, but your approach is full of hatred, anger, bile and disgust - all negative aspects. I suspect naivety rather than a true revolutionary spirit.

Accept us for what we are - human, full of faults, greed, inequality but deep down really rather wonderful.

Forget the purely financial aspect and explore the spiritual.If you knew me, you'd say I was being hypocritical but it's true. Look at the bigger picture.

Are you HIV? Homeless? Suffer Cancer? Disabled? No? Then be grateful, earn your money, respect and love your fellow human beings and STFU whingeing and realise you're well off.

None of us are perfect but some of us try.