The good news is no more rubbers...

**nichomach** · 07-10-2003, 02:28 PM

I respectfully disagree Maffu; the action of the man is purely restricted to providing the means to fertilise an egg, which I would argue is precisely mirrored by a woman providing an egg to be fertilised. Effectively, his action and involvement at a purely physical level end at that point. It requires considerably greater action and involvement on the part of the woman for some 9 months beyond this point (even assuming the fertilised ovum implants correctly), which action and involvement carry physical risk, discomfort and a chance (albeit relatively small) of actually dying, in order to produce a child at the end of it. A fertilised ovum is not a child; it is merely something which has the potential to become a child. Given the obvious inequalities of involvement, I would argue that in any disagreement, the choice of the woman is paramount. In other words, yes, it should be solely her choice.

**Maffu** · 07-10-2003, 02:34 PM

Wow. A typo of a nickname. Hilarious.

Indeed. I wouldn’t want a grease monkey fixing my graphics card, in a professional sense, but then it’s not his job to. Making babies, well, it’s something we all must know about, so I hope most take vested interest in this area we are discussing hence why we need not all experience it first, or second hand in order to comment.

As for the bigger picture, people can do what the hell they want with their bodies and what they produce. So long as all parties involve decide the income. It’d be pretty fcuking gutting for a bloke not to have a say on an abortion because he’s not the carrier.
Elmo – why stop at a decision over an abortion? Why should the father have any say at all on his child all through it’s life, seeing as he didn’t carry it? Why can my Dad have an equal say with my mother when I’m alive, but if they didn’t want me before I was born, according to you, he shouldn’t.

**CrapshoT** · 07-10-2003, 02:39 PM

well it makes no difference whatsoever to me now as ive had the snip so i cant father anymore children anyway its not really for the single lads now is it its more for the family man who doesnt want to extend the size of his family at that present time

**Bazzlad** · 07-10-2003, 02:41 PM

Sorry maffu, but I just saw Bazzland and laughed! I'm gonna buy an island one day and name it bazzlad

a very good point you make tho,
As the male doesn't carry the child and doesnt get the choice of it's life or death, they should get ANY say in it's life, should they?
It takes two to make, why should it only take one to break?

**Lujan** · 07-10-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by shiato storm
now, they talk about injecting testosterone into men and that reduces sperm production etc.

The way I understood the article posted at the beginning of this thread was that the combination of the testosterone and the progestin switches off production of sperm and of testosterone.

Therefore, the testosterone given merely restores the levels of the hormone back to normal.

**Lujan** · 07-10-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by shiato storm
anoher thing i will add is that they inject testosterone ot make up for what you're nuts are not doing... but how do they know how much to inject? everyone is different - how do they know I'm a particularly manly man with lots of testosterone and the next guy is a bit of a girl? do they just give one dose of it out or is there a weighting? maybe they are able to measure it before you get injected...
either way if i had it done i'd want to know I was getting enough!

Hmzzz....fair point tbh

**Big RICHARD** · 07-10-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Elmo
scooooooooz me!

I, being a girl, think that it IS up to the girl whether she believes or disbelieves the bloke, and whether to keep an unborn baby or not.

Yes, i understand it takes 2, but at the same time, it's the girl's body! if she doesnt want to become preggers and (potentially) call a halt on her freedom, that's her choice. Why SHOULD she believe the bloke's taken some sort of contraception? And yes, the same goes for blokes, why SHOULD he believe she's taken hers? Its up to BOTH of them to take the necessary steps, not just one or the other. I really wish people would stop trying to shift the blame/responsibility!

</rant>

I don't entirely agree with you here, but I see your point.

Yes it is the girl's body. Morning after pill?
If she doesn't want it then she needs to protect herself adequetly. This discussion is about a male contraceptive injection (at present, moving towards a pill). She should also protect herself if she doesn't want a child.
What about if she wants the baby and the father doesn't? He's then required BY LAW to pay maintenance, for something he has no say about. If she doesn't want it he can't force her into an unwanted situation where she has to have the baby and he takes it and asks for maintenance.

Sorry, but equality is what I beleive in, not power to one side.

**Elmo** · 07-10-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Bazzlad
I did A level human Biology, How the hell can you call the gametes undifferentiated, the most advanced Scientists couldn't even start to make anything half as smart as that. The information which builds an entire human resides within these cells, I wouldn't call them undifferentiated, each one WILL become something and they reckon that they are all marked to what they will be rather than your idea that they're picked at random, HEY THIS ONE LOOKS STRONG, it'll be the heart.

And it is a life when the gametes fuse a Zygote
Parasitic organisms rely on hosts or will die and is classed as a life the zygote relys on its host too.

Go read ur(sic) english books again.

EVERY cell in ur body contains DNA which contains all the information to make ever cell in ur body. I didnt say which cell they becom was random. The body makes cells as they're needed. Thats how it works. If it needs skin cells, it'll take an undifferentiated cell and make it into what it needs to be. Essentially, a zygote, of 1 cell, is undifferentiated. It contains a mix of the DNA from both mother and father along with half of each's chromosomes. From this, a person is made.

and what have my english books got to do with the price of cheese? i'm studying biology at university, i know what happens to cells and to fertilised eggs. I've been studying them for a few years. But thanks for trying to teach me different from my Genetics lecturer. I'll pass this info on to him.

**Elmo** · 07-10-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
I don't entirely agree with you here, but I see your point.

Yes it is the girl's body. Morning after pill?
If she doesn't want it then she needs to protect herself adequetly. This discussion is about a male contraceptive injection (at present, moving towards a pill). She should also protect herself if she doesn't want a child.
What about if she wants the baby and the father doesn't? He's then required BY LAW to pay maintenance, for something he has no say about. If she doesn't want it he can't force her into an unwanted situation where she has to have the baby and he takes it and asks for maintenance.

Sorry, but equality is what I beleive in, not power to one side.

if everyone who's been so quick to jump in and flame me had actually READ what i'd said, they'd see i never actually said it WASNT up to the woman to protect herself from pregnancy. But, accidents DO happen. Doesnt matter how many precausions we take, they still manage to happen in everything we do. I also said it takes 2, and as such, it's a 2 persons responsibility. HOWEVER, i believe it is ULTIMATELY the woman's choice, after talking about it with the bloke involved.

Everyone seems to think i'm pro abortion. I'm neither for or against it, i've said this already. I'm in favour of the choice tho. There are special cases and then there are people who just take the p***.

**Skii** · 07-10-2003, 07:50 PM

I couldn't agree more with you Elmo.

**petrefax** · 07-10-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
What about if she wants the baby and the father doesn't? He's then required BY LAW to pay maintenance, for something he has no say about. If she doesn't want it he can't force her into an unwanted situation where she has to have the baby and he takes it and asks for maintenance.

Originally posted by Elmo
I think u'll find in 99% of the cases it'l be the woman who gets the last say.

between these two, that pretty much says it all imho

**shiato storm** · 08-10-2003, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Bazzlad
I did A level human Biology

and you'd like what exactly for your troubles eh? a medal? well here you go.

big deal - I'v done an MSc in Physiology! (kiss my shiny bottom!)

ok, we need an explaination of what really happens when the egg gets fertilised?
short answer: sperm enters egg, genetic material pairs up into newly formed cell - form haploid to diploid for all those budding A level guys/girls out there - chromosomes pair up and it all starts to get rather messy until 9months later (for humans) out pops Jnr.
the long version - I couldn't be *rsed. basically whats been said is right, we know very littl about what tells a seemingly useless ball of cells to from legs and arms, eyes ears nose - all the things we have on our body. there are various theories towards growth factors etc but no one's that keen to have their eggs/sprem used for genetic testing/developmental biology (despite the fact that we all know it'll help us all in the long run. [I hate ethics]

so we're getting there but not yet.

but in the mean time, and to save the indecision, perhaps the following phrase will alieviate any awkwardness the morning after:
"want to go halves on a b******d? "

**Drunken Poncho** · 08-10-2003, 12:52 AM

so what if .. lets say. One night stand. condom breaks.. man wants woman to take morning after pill. Woman refuses. Woman has child. Man is forced to pay maintinance for 20 years...

What is right with that situation ?

**Knoxville** · 08-10-2003, 01:01 AM

Sue the condom company for the cost of maintaining the child

**Drunken Poncho** · 08-10-2003, 01:22 AM

wouldnt happen... condom companys have no liablity because measures could have been take to prevent the child being born

[void] take something for the morning after [/void]

**Knoxville** · 08-10-2003, 01:27 AM

well as condoms are the reccomended contrceptive pretty much everywhere and the morning afterpill is not availdable as readily as condoms it could be argued that the condom company are responsible at least in part.

Fair enough other measures could be taken, but they shouldn't be needed because the condom should have done its job.

Thread: The good news is no more rubbers...

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