Running Linux on the PS3 - A detailed view of what's out there

[NeoTechni]

just wanna say thx Neo, you come up with some interesting points!

thank you, i appreciate it

[directhex]

The only update before the 21st was available the day PS3 launched. So I was definetly able to have it installed when I claimed

okay, i concede the point - the update was released on japanese launch day, the window of "not working" was somewhat brief

YDL still gets "first" status, as the one sony themselves were working with pre-launch

[NeoTechni]

IGN: Blu-ray Already Ripped on PS3

December 1, 2006 - Just a few days after the release of Terra Soft Solutions' Yellow Dog Linux v5.0, hackers found a way to rip Blu-ray movies onto the PS3 hard drive.

Yellow Dog Linux v5.0, which can be downloaded at Terra Soft's site, allows users to turn their PlayStation 3 into a personal computer. The hard drive is segmented to prevent users from manipulating the PS3's own software, but that hasn't stopped hackers from exploiting Sony's new console.

Multiple sites, including PVRWire, are demonstrating methods to illegally copy Blu-ray movies to the PS3 hard drive. Since Blu-ray drives are not yet available on PCs, the PS3 version of Linux is the first user-accessible OS capable of working with the new media.

Unlike music CDs, which allow users to create back-up copies for personal use, Blu-ray and DVD movies carry express copyright laws forbidding any form of duplication. Even ripping a Blu-ray disc to a PS3 for your own enjoyment is in violation of these laws.

[NeoTechni]

YDL still gets "first" status, as the one sony themselves were working with pre-launch

YDL gets first status, as the first Linux distro Sony helped with for PS3. But it was not the first distro that worked on PS3. And YDL worked no better than fedora did. In fact it worked worse than FC. I still can't get VNC server working properly, something enabled by default on FC. I see no reason why FC was discounted. Your reason about not everything being included on the disc doesn't make sense. I burned the bootloader to the same disc as FC out of laziness. It took no extra effort to do this, it took less actually.

[directhex]

YDL gets first status, as the first Linux distro Sony helped with for PS3. But it was not the first distro that worked on PS3. And YDL worked no better than fedora did. In fact it worked worse than FC. I still can't get VNC server working properly, something enabled by default on FC. I see no reason why FC was discounted. Your reason about not everything being included on the disc doesn't make sense. I burned the bootloader to the same disc as FC out of laziness. It took no extra effort to do this, it took less actually.

not everyone who reads the site has a detailed understanding of linux internals - especially those reading something on the games subsection. not everyone wants to have that understanding - their experience with windows means things just work (ha!) with no extra bollocking about with framebuffer modes, kernel modules, ifconfig, and the like.

it's certainly reasonable to expect an install cd to contain, well, enough files to launch the installer would be a good start.

gnu/linux is an immensely extensible, adaptable OS, and it seems more than a little backward when the first step of an installation procedure is "first modify this ISO9660 disk image...", especially given the "just works" simplicity of i386, x86-64 and regular ppc distributions.

when someone at the fedora project gets off their high-horse and *gasp* burns an extra file into the ISO images, for the benefit of those horrible demanding gits the "users", then I'll take another look. but given competing distros are able to get this right, why should Fedora get the breaks when the lack of file is essentially saying "this isn't for PS3, but it might work, dunno, don't really care"?

[NeoTechni]

not everyone who reads the site has a detailed understanding of linux internals

Anyone who wants to install Linux, would surely be willing to learn. Otherwise they'd have no desire to install Linux, it's not the cakewalk Windows is made to be. It was the whole point I installed it for example, to get a new learning experience.

it's certainly reasonable to expect an install cd to contain, well, enough files to launch the installer would be a good start

The boot loader was later built into PS3s firmware. It does not come on the YDL disc. The YDL didn't go to any extra effort. And installing Fedora core or any distribution on newer firmware would no longer ask for said bootloader.

and it seems more than a little backward when the first step of an installation procedure is "first modify this ISO9660 disk image...",

I didn't modify the image. I unchecked "Close session" in nero, and then simply burned the bootloader when it was done.

why should Fedora get the breaks when the lack of file is essentially saying "this isn't for PS3

One file doesn't make it for PS3.

The point of PS3 running Linux is that it runs any PPC distribution. It does not require PS3-specific distros. It could run OSX if you were willing to put up with the resource hogging.

YDL is no more PS3 specific than Fedora Core is.

Fedora Core "gets the breaks" because it ran on PS3 first and supported all hardware made available to both it aand YDL. Making it the first distro to run on PS3.
YDL doesn't "get the breaks" cause you like it more.

[directhex]

Anyone who wants to install Linux, would surely be willing to learn. Otherwise they'd have no desire to install Linux, it's not the cakewalk Windows is made to be. It was the whole point I installed it for example, to get a new learning experience.

a modern distro can allow you to install a powerful system without ever seeing the business end of a console. see my home media server article, for example. why should a gamer asking "i hear the ps3 can be a desktop pc too, let's take a look" need to mess with config files and terminals, when anyone installing on an i386 or x86-64 box gets a smooth desktop experience from the moment the cd goes in the drive?

this is my entire point. linux on the desktop is (and has been for a while really) ready for anyone to use. wives, grandfathers, brothers, sisters. it's now just "different" rather than "harder" to get all the things the average person wants to get done - watch a video, play music, surf the web, write letters.

ps3 distros all fall a long way short of this. it's like stepping through a time warp, and looking at the distros of ~5 years ago.

The boot loader was later built into PS3s firmware. It does not come on the YDL disc. The YDL didn't go to any extra effort. And installing Fedora core or any distribution on newer firmware would no longer ask for said bootloader.

otheros.bld - the bootloader - still needs explicit installation. you're not going to get very far without it. and each distro needs an otheros.bld which knows, for example, what to run to launch the installer. unless you just plonk people at a kboot prompt, expect them to read the (usually non-existent) documentation & type out a kernel parameter line.

I didn't modify the image. I unchecked "Close session" in nero, and then simply burned the bootloader when it was done.

burning an iso is hard enough for some people (really, watch any linux support channel, and wait for the people who have a cd containing a single .iso file). needing to mess with per-burning-app parameters like session finalisation is unreasonable.

One file doesn't make it for PS3.

one file makes it installable on ps3. there are obviously other concerns (e.g. the easy availability of the framebuffer tweaking utility, drivers, knowledge of the funny way some of the virtualised hardware like networking behaves). but it's the starting point.

The point of PS3 running Linux is that it runs any PPC distribution. It does not require PS3-specific distros. It could run OSX if you were willing to put up with the resource hogging.

there's the driver issue, too, of course. and here, i have to point to opensuse - the conventional, non-specific ppc image contains a graphical bootloader (petitboot), and all the ps3 specific gubbins. it's a complete image. you could shoehorn any distro on with enough effort, true, but it's up to the distro maintainers to make the experience on ps3 as *simple* as possible - and as close to the i386/x86-64 experience as possible.

YDL is no more PS3 specific than Fedora Core is.

the bootloader is a critical point here. would you accept an x86-64 distro without grub or lilo included, that expected you to deal with it yourself? or which didn't include any support for 6 of the cores on your CPU (fedora lacks libspe2 and associated compiler - worth noting is ubuntu even includes a cross-compiler for other architecture releases to simplify libspe2 development)

Fedora Core "gets the breaks" because it ran on PS3 first and supported all hardware made available to both it aand YDL. Making it the first distro to run on PS3.
YDL doesn't "get the breaks" cause you like it more.

like it more? i dislike both equally. i started this with clear requirements for entry (which fedora fails on), and an unbiased opinion of the distributions on that architecture (it looked a lot like suse would come out the clear winner, until the installer ended & the horror of the installed system landed)

[gtech]

WOW, This is like the geeks eastenders. I'm actually really enjoying reading what you two are talking about (cant get my head round some if it), but it's cool that you can clear up the goods and the bads of linux on ps3.



just hope we dont get any more silly comments like 'dick' and 'moron'
because thats what really spoilt the debate.

[NeoTechni]

And?
You're failing to grasp the article here.

No I wasn't. He said no choice was given. A choice was given. Not only that, but as I pointed out an easy to use installer is available from the main menu.

You're failing to grasp my point. He said there is "no choice", there is one. I'm not running a special distribution. I'm running the same YDL he is.

You're also failing to grasp the point of the article. To inform people. He should inform them of how to fix any issues he finds.

then taking the article out of context

I didn't. I find it rude you keep suggesting that

by comparing it to your distribution (without any details at all) was silly.

I specified I was using YDL. I specified how I got VLC working (type "yum install vlc") I specified how I got boot-game-os working (type "boot-game-os")

It is wrong to imply I included no details.

launch-day (and by that i mean the first launch globally, not wherever you're based) machines came with firmware 1.00 out of the box, which lacks the ability to boot other OSes

As I quoted from Sony's website, 1.10 was available on launch day. Meaning when I said I had Linux installed launch day, I was being truthful despite your claims to the contrary.
And as I said before, launch day in North America, was only one week after the Japanese release. And you don't strike me as a resident of Japan. So again, you saying I lied when I said I had Linux installed launch day was incorrect.

Even worse, the OtherOS installer was available on 1.00 as it was seen in pictures of the XMB before PS3 launched in Japan.

obviously with sufficient tinkering you can run anything on anything. that's not to say it's something an end-user would or should be expected to know

On Linux, yes, it is expected of them to know. Linux was not meant for the audience you seem to believe. It's not for the ultra-user-friendliness people are used to on Windows. For starters, you need more than basic knowledge just to install it. And as I pointed out an easy to use program installer is available from the main menu.

for linux to ever break out of its current niches, it needs to offer an experience as easy or easier than the competition

Oh I agree with that fully. However that's discussing something completely different.

it's a frustrating prospect for media use, since there's no way in hell it'll play HD media properly without more access to the hardware

1) As I posted in this topic already, RSX access has been unlocked. The only hardware still unavailable is the PS2 BC hardware.
2) Even without the RSX, all developers need to do is SPU optimize their code. Cell demos have shown the processor can decode multiple HD streams.

so you agree that the menu option in e17 is broken and worthless?

I found no boot-game-os menu option. But if it's broken, that would suggest YDL is no more PS3 specific than Fedora Core.

for example, no distribution supports the ps3 remote control

Actually they do with a lot of tweaking.

I think Jo has quite clearly shown that his breadth and depth of knowledge on the subject makes him something of an expert

I would say the exact opposite what with him accusing me of being too advanced.

but all of that is too much faffing for the standard user.

Linux is not aimed at standard users. It's not aimed at grandmas. It's not aimed at script kiddies, beginners, computer illiterates, or libraries. It's aimed at people who know their way around a command line (which is why it's the first icon on the taskbar) and ini files. Someone smart enough who thinks, "I don't know how to install VLC. I'll Google it!" rather than telling people in an article it can't be done. Then getting offended when someone who tells them it can be. The XMB is for those people, who don't need Linux anyway.

I came here to help you guys. You lacked appropriate skills. I brought mine. You complained about issues you had, I came to help you fix them. The sheer audacity of the responses I've gotten speak worlds about the Linux community. I came here offering a hand, you guys slapped it.

It's not like the command prompt is hard to find, it's that little black monitor icon on the taskbar. Instead of telling your readers they have no choice, you could tell them the 2 step process that they have the choice of using.

[NeoTechni]

Article Detail - PlayStation 3 News - QJ.NET

Posted Nov 17, 2006 at 01:04AM

(1 hour after launch)

Yes, the void has been filled! You will be able to install Fedora Core 5 on your PS3s right now if you have all the components ready! The void we're talking about here is the OtherOS Installer which has just been released by Sony on their Open Platform for PLAYSTATION site. So let us be the first ones to tell you how it's done. We're getting our own PS3 in a few hours and we'll make sure that you have the whole install process with pictures later on. Until then, check out the instructions:

Just type in reboot to restart your PS3. When your PS3 starts, you will be able to login as root with the password you supplied during install. Just type it in and have fun with Fedora Core 5! You will be able to install any app as long as it has a PPC build of it. That includes most major applications like Mozilla Firefox, VLC player and more..

The requirements don't list updating to 1.10

[NeoTechni]

And when you complained about the menu option, you should have googled it.

First link that showed up: How to fix the "Boot-Game-OS" menu option in YDL - PS3Forums

How to fix the "Boot-Game-OS" menu option in YDL

[directhex]

And when you complained about the menu option, you should have googled it.

First link that showed up: How to fix the "Boot-Game-OS" menu option in YDL - PS3Forums

How to fix the "Boot-Game-OS" menu option in YDL

the menu option you've said more than once doesn't exist?

[directhex]

Linux is not aimed at standard users. It's not aimed at grandmas. It's not aimed at script kiddies, beginners, computer illiterates, or libraries. It's aimed at people who know their way around a command line (which is why it's the first icon on the taskbar) and ini files

users of tivo, tomtom, XO, and the eeepc would disagree

linux is aimed at whomever the people creating a specific distribution want to aim it at. sometimes it's absolutely aimed at only those with a deep understanding of operating system internals (LFS, for example). other times, it's aimed at people with no understanding of computers whatsoever (linspire, for example). it's entirely possible to use a linux system without even knowing it (see earlier embedded device examples), if that's the intention of the distribution creator

and there's absolutely nothing forcing the experience into being difficult, other than poor distribution design. many typical desktop tasks are easier than windows on some distributions.

[directhex]

Actually they do with a lot of tweaking.

the remote, not the controller. this thing

there's a functional python script to make it work (i.e. not just pair as a keyless HID device), via evdev keyboard emulation.

it's based on work by brett rodgers, which is based on work by will woods.

any guesses who wrote it?

[Nick]

Quote:
obviously with sufficient tinkering you can run anything on anything. that's not to say it's something an end-user would or should be expected to know

On Linux, yes, it is expected of them to know. Linux was not meant for the audience you seem to believe. It's not for the ultra-user-friendliness people are used to on Windows. For starters, you need more than basic knowledge just to install it. And as I pointed out an easy to use program installer is available from the main menu.

And that response, for me, has just killed any chance of me running Linux on anything.

Let me put it this way: Why do you think Microsoft is the biggest damn software corp this world has ever seen? It's because their software is user friendly and despite its many faults, for most people it just works.

Why aren't more people running Linux? Because, unlike NeoTechni here, they weren't born with the necessary knowledge to get Linux running.

So that's me out of this thread.

NeoTechni, I'm sorry but your thinly veiled Linux elitism has pretty much reinforced my idea of a stereotypical Linux user, something Jo has worked bloody hard to dispell and so nearly convinced me to have a crack at installing... but if Jo is the exception to the rule and you're representative of the majority of users, I'm best off out of it.

[gtech]

I'm with you there nick, i really only use my ps3 for gaming and a few films and thats it, i'm trying to think why i would install linux and try it? afterall i have a pc with the user-friendly windows and any thing to do with anything i try on my pc,
so why would an average user like me install linux and tinker (and after reading what you guys are on about i feel like my grandma), is it not true windows can do everything linux can? There may be people out there with just ps3's and no pc who might benefit but for somone like me i cant see the use. Or is it for people who HATE microsoft?