Running Linux on the PS3 - A detailed view of what's out there

[directhex]

I'm with you there nick, i really only use my ps3 for gaming and a few films and thats it, i'm trying to think why i would install linux and try it? afterall i have a pc with the user-friendly windows and any thing to do with anything i try on my pc,
so why would an average user like me install linux and tinker (and after reading what you guys are on about i feel like my grandma), is it not true windows can do everything linux can? There may be people out there with just ps3's and no pc who might benefit but for somone like me i cant see the use. Or is it for people who HATE microsoft?

there's the tinkerer value, of course - and given this is a pc enthusiast website we're talking about, that's a pretty strong compulsion.

and you're also right about those without a PC - after all, what Windows machine costs £300, runs blu-ray movies, games at 1920x1080, and does the usual email/office stuff too? it'd make for the ultimate machine for parents, purely as a dvd player and pc they can use in the living room

can windows do everything linux can? maybe. for some of us, it's about the freedom to tinker - windows is like buying a pc which is welded shut. sometimes you want to be able to hop in & replace a component.

[NeoTechni]

the menu option you've said more than once doesn't exist?

The one I said I can't find.

users of tivo, tomtom, XO, and the eeepc would disagree

Yeah, and your point is? They aren't using Linux as a PC OS, but rather just a limited functionality shell. The eeepc is just like that nokia internet tablet.

the remote, not the controller

Yes I know you meant the remote. Geesus murphy. Again, yes it works with lots of tweaking. The controller works with significantly less

Let me put it this way: Why do you think Microsoft is the biggest damn software corp this world has ever seen? It's because their software is user friendly and despite its many faults, for most people it just works.

Why aren't more people running Linux? Because, unlike NeoTechni here, they weren't born with the necessary knowledge to get Linux running.

I'm not saying Linux's way is the right way. I'm saying that's how it is.

I've designed many UI's, and most of what I know about designing them was taught to me by MS.

As I said before, I agree when you say Linux will always be held back unless they become more userfriendly. Hell my motto is most Linux distros look like the bastard son of 95.

But that doesn't change the fact they require users who are willing to go out and do research on problems rather than accept defeat.

NeoTechni, I'm sorry but your thinly veiled Linux elitism has pretty much reinforced my idea of a stereotypical Linux user

It's not elitism. I'm not a Linux fanatic. I'm just explaining it has higher requirements of it's users than Windows. Blaming a specific distribution for it however is wrong, since all are guilty of it.

something Jo has worked bloody hard to dispell and so nearly convinced me to have a crack at installing... but if Jo is the exception to the rule and you're representative of the majority of users

Why must you guys continually resort to insults?

I came here trying to help, I've given alternatives to pretty much all of his complaints. I've given you simply commands to fix his problems. And that's too hard for you?

I should be the one convincing you to try it, not disuading you. He's complaining of such huge issues and I'm telling you it's easily solvable with less than 2 minutes on google or typing "boot-game-os". I would think I'm making it look easier on you all than he is.

can windows do everything linux can? maybe. for some of us, it's about the freedom to tinker - windows is like buying a pc which is welded shut

I am a Windows developer. Windows PCs are by far easier to tinker with than Linux.

[ikonia]

I came here trying to help

You've failed.

Mostly because of the way you put your point across and your trying to find fault in an article for the wrong reasons.

The article is giving information based on a specific senario, saying its wrong because if you fix the flux capacitor and hit 88mph it will work is out of context of the article.

No-one is blaming a distro, but highlighting failings from both a technical level and user experience level of that distro on the hardware limitations of the PS3.

Genuinly have another read of the article posted, then your arguments and you'll hopefully see your arguing a point that was never made by the origional article.

[Agent]

Ubuntu 7.10 on PS3 - Installation guide and first impressions - Softpedia

Might be interesting to some.

[NeoTechni]

You've failed.

Obviously not. I've already been thanked by someone.
I helped at least one person, that's all I set out to do.

Mostly because of the way you put your point across

I'm sorry but given how you guys replied, especially with all the insulting. I still disagree. I came off far more polite than you guys did. And you are being horribly overly defensive if the word wrong warrants such pathetic treatment you guys have shown me. If you guys were guys politely complained about the word wrong from the start instead of being complete asses like some of you were, I would have apologized then. But you guys were dispicable. It was seriously disgusting how you guys reacted to a non-threatening word I specifically chose not to offend people.

Not only that, but you've all been told not to discuss that anymore.

and your trying to find fault in an article for the wrong reasons.

I found faults because there were some. That's not the wrong reason to find them. That's really the only right reason to.

No-one is blaming a distro, but highlighting failings from both a technical level and user experience level of that distro on the hardware limitations of the PS3.

And that's the problem. It's not PS3s fault at all. Especially since he's complaining about things like how Linux in general is not meant for a general audience. And the boot-game-os thing. You're telling me a shortcut not working is a PS3 hardware problem? That's silly. Especially since I posted a link saying it was an incorrectly set permission on the shortcut file. Not one complaint he had was the fault of PS3s hardware

Genuinly have another read of the article posted, then your arguments and you'll hopefully see your arguing a point that was never made by the origional article.

Nope. It gets even worse if you re-read it. The title says a "Detailed view", yet isn't even detailed enough to RTFM, or even google for solutions to his complaints? He tried to promote the article as something it's not right from the start.

My complaints are valid. I've even shown them to other Linux users who agreed and said you guys missed the point completely. No matter what your complaints were, you should've offered the solutions I gave you. This article is doing a diservice to potential Linux on PS3 users, telling them of flaws that can easily be solved and not bothering to show them how.

Also I thank Agent for that link, I only came back here to post it myself.

I especially like this part

To get back to your PS3 OS, restart Ubuntu and, at the KBoot prompt, type:

boot-game-os

[directhex]

And that's the problem. It's not PS3s fault at all. Especially since he's complaining about things like how Linux in general is not meant for a general audience.

that's your argument. mine is quite the reverse. really, i can't conceive how you've twisted my words into an absolute mirror image.

And the boot-game-os thing. You're telling me a shortcut not working is a PS3 hardware problem? That's silly. Especially since I posted a link saying it was an incorrectly set permission on the shortcut file. Not one complaint he had was the fault of PS3s hardware

you're right, it's not specifically an issue with the ps3 hardware - it's an issue with a distribution which is meant to use that hardware effectively. i have nothing positive to say about any operating system with non-functional menu options in the base install, for any architecture. it's inexcusable, and shows a total lack of testing and quality control

Nope. It gets even worse if you re-read it. The title says a "Detailed view", yet isn't even detailed enough to RTFM, or even google for solutions to his complaints? He tried to promote the article as something it's not right from the start.

i didn't pick the title. blame editorial, if you must.

i still think you have a fatal misunderstanding of the demographics who read an article like this. they're not interested in needing horrible workarounds and fiddles just to get a system working as advertised. in hindsight, i actually regret working around the xubuntu installation issues - because most people aren't going to know about either dragging a window from the middle, nor the ins and outs of dhclient. any "normal" person giving this whole linux thing a go would, quite rightly, simply give up & write the thing off as a heap of junk as the idea of even the installer being fundamentally broken.

My complaints are valid. I've even shown them to other Linux users who agreed and said you guys missed the point completely. No matter what your complaints were, you should've offered the solutions I gave you. This article is doing a diservice to potential Linux on PS3 users, telling them of flaws that can easily be solved and not bothering to show them how.

that's a different article, with a different scope. and, to be honest, not a very interesting one. "fixing the absolute mess of ps3 linux distros, because the maintainers haven't"? doesn't have a particularly good ring to it. and, frankly, the demographic who reads the existing article isn't going to be interested. why should they be? why is the onus on the user to fix errors in the install media? why is pointing out those errors wrong?

my recomendation, which i will stand by, is that "normal" users, ps3 owners without a strong technical background, should steer clear of all three named distributions - they are not sensible day-to-day operating systems, and certainly not as useful as windows or linux on i386. this is a failing of the distributions, not the user or hardware. expecting everyone to invoke some byzantine procedures just to use a computer of some kind is, frankly, stunted reasoning - whilst there's a market there for people who WANT to engage in this kind of hackery (and i'll be covering something along those lines in a few articles' time), it's unreasonable to expect it of EVERYONE. otherwise sod the linux desktop, and let everyone go back to running yggdrasil.

Also I thank Agent for that link, I only came back here to post it myself.

it's a terrible article. in fact, it's what inspired me to write mine. 1) it's conceptually flawed (installing kboot from removable media, when it's on the install cd) 2) it completely glosses over issues like the "sexy" installer, y'know, not actually fitting on the screen. or wireless not working. 3) it doesn't actually cover any of the absolute basics that people would need to know - even trivialities like the inability to run i386 apps.

I especially like this part

your straw man is becoming tiresome. and not relevant to xubuntu, which never made claims to the contrary about using boot-game-os.

it's not about the need to type "boot-game-os". believe it or not, i'm aware of it. it's about having a menu option that doesn't work. that and "logout", of course. why is the menu option there in the first place, if you're not meant to use it? why is the menu option there, if it doesn't work? isn't it reasonable to expect an option in the basic menus to work? hint: yes, it is reasonable.

[NeoTechni]

i still think you have a fatal misunderstanding of the demographics who read an article like this

No, you had complaints to which there were extremely simple solutions you should have given considering the demographic you claim to be targetting.

i have nothing positive to say about any operating system with non-functional menu options in the base install, for any architecture. it's inexcusable, and shows a total lack of testing and quality control

Agreed. Nothing pisses me off more than a lack of actual testing.

they're not interested in needing horrible workarounds and fiddles just to get a system working as advertised

It's not advertised at all. Let alone being advertised as user friendly.

your straw man is becoming tiresome. and not relevant to xubuntu, which never made claims to the contrary about using boot-game-os.

Straw man? That was more a sarcastic remark at your inability to read instructions. Especially since you claim to have read it prior. Which means you already read those instructions, which were the same ones given with YDL.

i'm aware of it

Then you should've put that in the article as the solution to your problem rather than claiming there was no solution. Not doing so is doing a disservice to your readers, and misleading them to believe it works worse than it actually does.

that's your argument. mine is quite the reverse. really, i can't conceive how you've twisted my words into an absolute mirror image.

I don't understand. I didn't claim you were blaming or not blaming PS3. I said it was silly to blame PS3 at all given for example, all your problems were easily solveable. Except for Linux's target audience. And if you're complaining I said you said that, well you're silly in blaming PS3 for that as well since it's a flaw with most/all Linux distributions.

"fixing the absolute mess of ps3 linux distros

It's far from an absolute mess. Pretty much none of your complaints affected most Linux users. Had you brought up how annoying it is to get HD resolutions enabled, you would've been able to get away with calling it an absolute mess.

my recomendation, which i will stand by, is that "normal" users, ps3 owners without a strong technical background, should steer clear of all three named distributions

Said users would have no need for linux in the first place. As was said before, the XMB fills their need, and is userfriendliness oriented for them.

and certainly not as useful as windows

The only Linux that can be nearly as useful as windows, is Linux on an X86 running wine.

2) it completely glosses over issues like the "sexy" installer, y'know, not actually fitting on the screen. or wireless not working.

Because Wireless wasn't enabled till the second OtherOS update

[Betty_Swallocks]

May I just ask a question? (Politely I hope )

Why would your Granny even think of installing Linux on anything, let alone a PS3?

I can see no value for her in doing so even if the setup procedure was as simple as turning on her washing machine.

Really, what can you actually do with it that you can't do with a cheap laptop and no hassle at all?

The uses suggested range from surfing the web, which can be done with everything from a set top box to a mobile phone, to acting as a media player and it is possible to buy a dedicated, wireless enabled media player for less than a hundred quid.

Why would anyone want to spend the price of a PS3 and then go through the hassle of installing an os that it wasn't designed for just to do something that can be done a lot more cheaply out of the box on other devices.

The tinkerer value that directhex mentions is really the only real thing that it has going for it and tbh anyone who values that doesn't really want things to be too easy, do they?

I can see the appeal in making a device do something that it wasn't originally intended to do but I really don't think that either my Grandma nor any other non technical person would find the same appeal.

Why make it user friendly? Hell, most of the people I know wouldn't even attempt to install XP, and almost certainly wouldn't know what Linux was.

Be honest. Installing linux on anything is and always will be a geekfest. That is it's appeal. You have to MAKE it work. Where's the fun in disc swapping? And if it isn't about fun then what is it about?

[ikonia]

this thread is tiresime, directhex, it was a good article well written and perfectly in scope for the targeted audience.

Would a moderator considering locking this thread as it's starting to detract from the actual content.

[directhex]

May I just ask a question? (Politely I hope )

Why would your Granny even think of installing Linux on anything, let alone a PS3?

I can see no value for her in doing so even if the setup procedure was as simple as turning on her washing machine.

Really, what can you actually do with it that you can't do with a cheap laptop and no hassle at all?

The uses suggested range from surfing the web, which can be done with everything from a set top box to a mobile phone, to acting as a media player and it is possible to buy a dedicated, wireless enabled media player for less than a hundred quid.

how many grandmothers use squeezeboxes? O_o

Why would anyone want to spend the price of a PS3 and then go through the hassle of installing an os that it wasn't designed for just to do something that can be done a lot more cheaply out of the box on other devices.

£300 for a desktop pc isn't a bad price. especially one with built-in blu-ray player, games facilities, etc. is it as cheap as pc world's bottom of the range hardware? no, it isn't. but you can do more with it. does that matter to granny? no, you're right - call it poetic license, then, not many octogenarians use computers. but it's still not a bad prospect.

look at it this way, what's better value - a games console slash media player, or a games console slash media player slash desktop pc?

The tinkerer value that directhex mentions is really the only real thing that it has going for it and tbh anyone who values that doesn't really want things to be too easy, do they?

you'd intentionally make things hard for yourself for zero gain? maybe i just don't understand that point of view.

I can see the appeal in making a device do something that it wasn't originally intended to do but I really don't think that either my Grandma nor any other non technical person would find the same appeal.

Why make it user friendly? Hell, most of the people I know wouldn't even attempt to install XP, and almost certainly wouldn't know what Linux was.

reckon firefox would have any kind of acceptance if windows users had to compile it themselves? or OOo?

Be honest. Installing linux on anything is and always will be a geekfest. That is it's appeal. You have to MAKE it work. Where's the fun in disc swapping? And if it isn't about fun then what is it about?

it's a mature OS. why is it any more "geeky" than windows? you don't need to understand the intricacies of it to use or install it, any more than using windows requires you to know about how the registry and kernel driver models work. given the option (and i DO have the option), which OS do I run on all my computers, at home and at work? hell, even the wife prefers gnome to windows explorer, and is only tied to windows for her game.

[directhex]

No, you had complaints to which there were extremely simple solutions you should have given considering the demographic you claim to be targetting.

I'm not going to recommend people do something I wouldn't do myself. I would not run any of the distributions which I looked at, as I've built up an expectation of the system "just working" over the past few years, which all three fail to deliver on when run on a PS3. Life's too short.

It's not advertised at all. Let alone being advertised as user friendly.

From ubuntu.com:
Ubuntu 'Just Works'
We've done all the hard work for you. Once Ubuntu is installed, all the basics are in place so that your system will be immediately usable.

Straw man? That was more a sarcastic remark at your inability to read instructions. Especially since you claim to have read it prior. Which means you already read those instructions, which were the same ones given with YDL.

Christ on a bike, all this because the word "menu" is missing. If i get the word added, will you shut the hell up?

I don't understand. I didn't claim you were blaming or not blaming PS3. I said it was silly to blame PS3 at all given for example, all your problems were easily solveable. Except for Linux's target audience. And if you're complaining I said you said that, well you're silly in blaming PS3 for that as well since it's a flaw with most/all Linux distributions.

Sigh. As i've said more than once, i'm blaming the distribution maintainers for releasing a product which fails to live up to the usability expectations created by their own i386/x86_84 releases. Any bugger can install openSUSE or Ubuntu on a Windows pc, and have it work out of the box perfectly in most cases. With PS3 linux, all distributions fail out of the box in some way. That's not the fault of the hardware, that much is bloody obvious, it's the fault of software which claims to support that hardware, but does not correctly.

It's far from an absolute mess. Pretty much none of your complaints affected most Linux users. Had you brought up how annoying it is to get HD resolutions enabled, you would've been able to get away with calling it an absolute mess.

Pretty sure i did mention it. More than once. "the resolution is still low (with no obvious way to change it)" for example.

As for not an absolute mess, let's see - *buntu fails to fit on the screen, and networking is broken. YDL's menu contains broken entries, logout doesn't work, and basic apps like the music player don't function correctly. And openSUSE's install doesn't include functional audio, and basic apps fail to even launch. You don't consider that a mess? You must have pretty low standards.

Said users would have no need for linux in the first place. As was said before, the XMB fills their need, and is userfriendliness oriented for them.

It fills some needs, not all. There's a web browser, but how about word processing? Or if they hit a PDF? Or want to print on more than one model of Epson? Or want to do any photo enhancement?

The only Linux that can be nearly as useful as windows, is Linux on an X86 running wine.

That's a rather bold statement. Is it based on anything, other than your reliance on Windows for employment?

Because Wireless wasn't enabled till the second OtherOS update

Which was released WELL before the linked article. They simply glossed over the problems, which does nobody any good at all.

[NeoTechni]

trofix: VLC VideoLan, DivX XviD player on PS3 with YDL Linux

After install VLC Player i was able to play avi files over the network from NAT, from removable drive and from shared folder on Windows PC.

How it works? You need to log on as root on the blue screen and choose the gnome environment on your YDL.

I also find out that once you install VLC on gnome environment it will also run on the YDL enlightment environment, but gnome is more stable.

Step 1. Getting VLC Player installed onto the PS3, including all dependencies.

Download the 7zip file and use archive manager (default) to extract the 9 file in /etc/yum.repos.d you'll need to set the directory because it will try to download to the desktop.
Overwrite if necessary.



now open a gnome teminal and type

"yum update"

this will update your repositories.

Once its completed we will install VLC player simply by typing

"yum install videolan-client"

Voilà your favourite video player!

PS: Now with firmware 2.10 our beast could read divx, but if you want play video from your LAN, Linux and VLC are required...

[NeoTechni]

From ubuntu.com:

That hardly classifies as an ad, especially given your arguments about being available for everyone. Grandma isn't going to check that website, she'll check the box PS3 came in, and the TV ads at most.

Christ on a bike, all this because the word "menu" is missing. If i get the word added, will you shut the hell up?

Rude much?
No, this isn't about you missing the word menu, it's about you not giving your readers the whole story.

As for not an absolute mess, let's see - *buntu fails to fit on the screen, and networking is broken. YDL's menu contains broken entries, logout doesn't work, and basic apps like the music player don't function correctly. And openSUSE's install doesn't include functional audio, and basic apps fail to even launch. You don't consider that a mess?

No, seeing as the problems didn't affect me, and I followed included directions.

It fills some needs, not all. There's a web browser, but how about word processing? Or if they hit a PDF? Or want to print on more than one model of Epson? Or want to do any photo enhancement?

Google desktop. And PS3 supports more printers than 1 model, has for a while now.

Is it based on anything, other than your reliance on Windows for employment?

My employment doesn't depend on Windows.

They simply glossed over the problems, which does nobody any good at all.

Which is exactly what I'm accusing you of doing

[directhex]

logging onto gnome as root, then adding repositories for two completely different distributions at once? this is the kind of advice you'd offer novice users?

seriously?

[directhex]

That hardly classifies as an ad, especially given your arguments about being available for everyone. Grandma isn't going to check that website, she'll check the box PS3 came in, and the TV ads at most.

grandma will listen to what her nerd grandchild says. when they say "use this web browser, it'll cause fewer popups and toolbars and random crap", she takes it on faith. when she's told "don't go and spend money on a word processor, this one is close enough for you, and free", she's happy. when she's told "£300 gets you a dvd player which will let you check out all those knitting websites you like, keep up to date with emailing your sister in new zealand, check out photos from a digital camers, but you've got to learn how 'make menuconfig' works first", that's not going to go down so well.

Rude much?
No, this isn't about you missing the word menu, it's about you not giving your readers the whole story.

what do people want to read? what's interesting? i think it's fairly implicit that people with a deep grasp of linux fundamentals can generally get anything running on anything. not everybody was born far-reaching experience of the bourne shell and its ilk, not everyone knows the ins and outs of kernel design. they don't need to. the shell is no more vital on a modern well-designed linux system than regedit on a windows desktop - handy as a fallback, but a retarded starting point for novices.

and if people really want to "learn linux", then they should start with a stronger set of foundations than has been offered. for reference, i'm a strong advocate of top-down approaches to learning, e.g. starting with a high-level OO language before learning assembly.

No, seeing as the problems didn't affect me, and I followed included directions.

so you tried all three distributions i cite, and not a single one of the problems i mention happens?

Google desktop. And PS3 supports more printers than 1 model, has for a while now.

Epson America, Inc. - Support - Highlights
printer support, which appeared in 1.80

and google desktop, really? does anyone actually use that stuff?

My employment doesn't depend on Windows.

"I am a Windows developer."

Which is exactly what I'm accusing you of doing

really? where? i see a tirade of complaints about me not teaching users how to, individually, do the work of the distribution maintainers, fixing their bugs, working around their errors, and so on. which errors with the software am i glossing over?

[j.o.s.h.1408]

LOL this thread was a good laugh. arguing etc wasnt needed for such a thing but i have learned a few things here and btw great article. i just bought a ps3 last weekend and im about to try yellow dog. does yellow dog have a torrent program in it? somthing like utorrent? also i heard that the latest yellow dog comes with open office and was wondering if i can open docs and edit and print them on my canon printer just like a pc?

that would be great if i could do so