Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[kalniel]

kalniel, in your opinion as a Christian, is Homosexuality a sin in the eyes of (your) God?

No.

Also mate, if you start moving away from the Bible being the word of God, then you are on pretty thin ice. I've not seen him on 'An Audience With...' lately on ITV, so I suppose it’s lucky he speaks to you lot so frequently. Seems his main work is partially rejected even by his own followers, while none believers explain a little more of how the world around us works all the time, without ever having to resort to supernatural explanations.

Mate, please read the responses I've given before. No-one is rejecting any of the Bible, I am rejecting one interpretation of it and accepting another. And I'm quite happy to explain more of how the world around us works - I'm a structural bioinformatition and my PhD research was looking into patterns within the structures of proteins - including possible evolutionary links, my undergrad degree at Cambridge specialised in Biochemistry.

With his own followers straying from his teachings,

Actually we've always strayed from his teachings, but that's not happening any more now than it did 3000 years ago.

Also, as we can now choose how we interpret his words and actions, we can question any aspect we like, yes? So we can question his omnipotence. We can question his wisdom. We can question whether he is fundamentally right or wrong.

Absolutely. Christianity has never been one for saying 'you must believe this without question'.

How can you even be sure that following the few bits of his teachings that you still bother with is the right thing to do?

You can't. But you act with the best of intentions and strive to understand it better all the time

God does not act while Priests rape children. He does not act while Priests rape children in the House of God. In Church. He does not act while people die fighting for him, fighting against him. Is being a Christian even the right thing to do?

Just because God does not act (in that moment of time), it does not mean we, as Christians, should not act to prevent these things.

Say I forget my Atheist views, why worship a God that allows such evils to take place?

And finally a sensible question Seriously, that's a very good question and anyone thinking of becoming a Christian should think about it. My answer is that the 'prize' of gaining someone's love of their own free will rather than forcing them is worth the pain of having someone reject you.

[kalniel]

Can someone please just tell me.....

does God exist? Dont prove it to me..just say Yes or No

Yes.

If the answer is Yes, then can you please tell me, is he/she something that I can make contact with?

Define contact - yes you can communicate with God.

If the answer is Yes, can you please tell me how

Prayer/worship/etc.

and what kind of response I can expect?

Impossible to predict.

Will it be....solid and proveable to me?

Maybe. Some people have. But I've never had a solid and provable response.

[Zak33]

But I've never had a solid and provable response.

but you crack on, in the hope that someone's listening and taking heed?

[kalniel]

Well partly that's what faith is about, but equally responses don't have to be solid and provable. OK so something happens as a result of your prayers that could just as well happen by co-incidence. I might choose to believe it happened as response, and the next person might say it would have happened anyway. It doesn't directly affect my faith, because it's not based on any need for God to answer my prayers in the way I want Him to.

Of course, I'd really love Him to appear in a manifestation and 'prove' His own existence to me beyond any reasonable doubt. But I don't *need* Him to in order to believe, hence faith.

[Zak33]

OK, but how long can faith stand you in good stead? I mean, if I prayed for a cure to an illness and I never got it, I'd have to give up one day, or die feeling like I'd done something wrong for being ignored.

I'm sure more people join the church belief systems, than lapse/lose belief, but not many of them actually get what they pray for. Leaving it all a bit one sided.

If God IS on the receiving end of all this devotion, he/she must be pretty pleased with it. Because there's not a lot of payout going on in return.

Birth and health and countryside views maybe. But to pray for those might equally be seen to be praying for something that might occur anyway.

[JPreston]

Stewart you have made some excellent posts in this thread but I don't have time to read them right now

The gist of the argument is that religious people say 'atheism is a religion too' in a very knowing and rational way right before they tell their kids that once someone was swallowed by a whale/big fish and emerged alive one month later, along with other Just So stories. The assertion that all unfalsifiable statements are somehow automatically equal is lazy and stupid.

The only problem in the world is the fact that religious people do not accept that 1) every person deserves respect, and 2) that there are many worthless ideas that absolutely do not, all religions falling firmly into this camp.

Anway my only contribution for now will be to reply to:

Look, this is all getting a bit heated. Lets cool things down a bit.

Christians - Is Homosexuality a sin?

with a (real) newspaper headline from radio 4's news quiz:

Gay Sex Splits Bishops

also

Catholic Schools Practice Backdoor Selection

[chicken]

Absolutely. Christianity has never been one for saying 'you must believe this without question'.

I would strongly disagree here. That is exactly my experience of growing up with Christianity, and a quick Google search shows I am not alone in this view.

Results 1 - 10 of about 30,200 for bible "do not question god"

I was looking for a particular Bible quote but I can't find it and don't remember it in enough detail. What I got as results though I think demonstrates my point that Christians do often say and follow this.

It actually scares me the number of results that say "I do not question God" without them seeing what is inherently wrong with following any belief in that way!

[kalniel]

OK, but how long can faith stand you in good stead? I mean, if I prayed for a cure to an illness and I never got it, I'd have to give up one day, or die feeling like I'd done something wrong for being ignored.

I'm sure more people join the church belief systems, than lapse/lose belief, but not many of them actually get what they pray for. Leaving it all a bit one sided.

*nods* It's absolutely a reason why people loose belief. The key thing is to realise you aren't doing anything wrong, and nor are you being ignored. Instead it's perhaps not part of God's will to grant you what you ask for in the way you are asking for it. That can be for any number of reasons - maybe God knows best and you'll actually gain or learn something from not receiving your request, maybe someone else will learn something from it.

If you are joining a faith for the reason of having prayers answered then I'd suggest it's not a very good reason and you are likely to be disappointed, unless you have faith that your prayers are being answered in a way you don't know about.

Birth and health and countryside views maybe. But to pray for those might equally be seen to be praying for something that might occur anyway.

True. But consider it the other way around - if prayers were answered in ways that could not have occurred any other way, what room is left for faith, or even choice? There is no freedom to choose to believe if you have indisputable proof by way of a miracle. On the other hand if there is no need for you to have proof to aid your belief, them maybe your prayers will be indisputably answered because you already had demonstrated faith.

I don't know any further answers to this one I'm afraid. I'm pretty sure C.S.Lewis wrote a good book about this kind of thing. But for me, prayers not being answered in ways I'm sure about is not something faith destroying. There is no 'length of time' I'll cope like this - it's not faith if you say 'I'll give you 6 months to prove your existance' - faith is saying 'I could never have proof and yet I'll still believe'.

[kalniel]

I would strongly disagree here. That is exactly my experience of growing up with Christianity, and a quick Google search shows I am not alone in this view.


I was looking for a particular Bible quote but I can't find it and don't remember it in enough detail. What I got as results though I think demonstrates my point that Christians do often say and follow this.

It actually scares me the number of results that say "I do not question God" without them seeing what is inherently wrong with following any belief in that way!

Well I just did a search through an online version of my bible (NIV-UK) and it doesn't appear there. What it does in fact have are several examples of people questioning Jesus, who is in our belief, also God. His own disciples question him endlessly, I don't quite know how he put up with it

[chicken]

I'm sure it's in the Bible but it doesn't really matter, the original quote was referring to Christianity not the Bible directly: "Christianity has never been one for saying 'you must believe this without question'."

My experience of Christians was very much that you don't question God. My eventual questioning of God lead to me not believing in God, Christianity or any religion and to be quite honest I have been a lot more self-secure and happy since, all of the qualities Christians believe they get from following God.

I also kind of see religion as a self-defeating point, surely if a God existed then they'd rather their creatures didn't waste time worshipping them and got on with just being generally nice to each other whatever their sexual orientation, race, etc.

[kalniel]

I'm sure it's in the Bible but it doesn't really matter, the original quote was referring to Christianity not the Bible directly: "Christianity has never been one for saying 'you must believe this without question'."

My experience of Christians was very much that you don't question God.

Ok, well I guess some other people have different interpretations. My view is very much that the first, and in some way 'role model' christians, aka the disciples, very much did question God, and if it was ok for them to it's ok for me too I've met quite a lot of Christians and I've never met one who hasn't shared that view. It just goes to show you can't lump everyone under the same label - from now on please do interpret whenever I say 'Christians' or 'Christianity' as 'Christians/Christianity as I understand them/it'

My questioning of God lead to me not believing in God, Christianity or any religion and to be quite honest I have been a lot more self-secure and happy since, all of the qualities Christians believe they get from following God.

Fair enough. I slightly question your list of qualities, but we've obviously met different types of Christians

I also kind of see religion as a self-defeating point, surely if a God existed then they'd rather their creatures didn't waste time worshipping them and got on with just being generally nice to each other whatever their sexual orientation, race, etc.

I don't think many religions ask followers to stopping nice to each other etc. Certainly Christianity (as I understand it ) places 'Love your neighbour' as one of only two intents of law, and I don't think anyone is called to spend all their time worshipping - that would be completely failing to live as suggested in the Bible.

[chicken]

I don't think many religions ask followers to stopping nice to each other etc. Certainly Christianity (as I understand it ) places 'Love your neighbour' as one of only two intents of law, and I don't think anyone is called to spend all their time worshipping - that would be completely failing to live as suggested in the Bible.

What are Sundays all about then? Wouldn't it be better if, rather than go sit in a Church for a couple of hours, Christians disobayed the "Don't work on the Holy Day" rule and went out to run Soup kitchens, charity shops, teach kids to play instruments, paint, etc?

[directhex]

if you could 101% guarantee never being connected with it by any living being, would you kill those who don't share your point of view?

[kalniel]

What are Sundays all about then? Wouldn't it be better if, rather than go sit in a Church for a couple of hours, Christians disobayed the "Don't work on the Holy Day" rule and went out to run Soup kitchens, charity shops, teach kids to play instruments, paint, etc?

I think you'll find a lot of Christians do exactly that. Keeping the Sabbath holy is technically a Jewish law anyway. Church is also not a requirement, however it is something that's helpful, and as a church you can often do things together to help other people better than you could on your own. Besides, you are affirming and helping your Christian neighbours in church. One hour a week is hardly 'spending all their time worshipping', and again we are not expected to spend all the rest of the time helping other people either

If your job is writing code, you could spend all your working hours writing code. However if you could get better at writing code by attending training one hour a week, over all you would write more code (or better code) by taking that hour out for the training, because you'd get more out of the remaining time than you'd get from the time taken out for the training.

[g8ina]

See, this is why I'm a Taoist

[Blitzen]

Can someone please just tell me.....

does God exist? Dont prove it to me..just say Yes or No

If the answer is Yes, then can you please tell me, is he/she something that I can make contact with?

If the answer is Yes, can you please tell me how and what kind of response I can expect? Will it be....solid and proveable to me?

If so.....lead on.

Of course not.
If God exists so do fairies at the bottom of the garden.