Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[kalniel]

Those are admirable traits, and may be things which YOU associate with christians. They may be things you associate with YOUR interpretation of christianity. But as an outsider looking at the history of christianity, these aren't traits that would be historically associated with the religion.
As a christian, you have a biased view of the religion. Historically people have followed very different interpretations. You can say they are wrong and that you are right, but all you are doing is showing your dogmatic belief.
From a moral standpoint, your interpretation of christianity is much better. But christians in the past, from hitler to the crusades, believed they were following scripture and that their interpretation was the correct one.
Even today, there are different interpretations and they aren't all minority groups. The traits you mentioned aren't those I would associate with the evangelical church in the US, which is 30 million strong.

Yup, true to some extent.

The traits aren't ones that I've pulled out of nowhere - they're quite clearly listed in the new testament. Of course as you say, we're back to interpretation - personally I believe that the places they are mentioned (galations 5:22, colossians 3:12, timothy 6:11 and probably more) are fairly clear but of course YMMV

I'd also not be so certain about taring the whole of the US evangelical church with the same brush either - yes the ones that make the most noise may not fit in with those traits, but I think there are plenty of evangelicals who do display those traits. But by the very nature of the traits, you don't always hear about them. Ditto history - the crusades are not representative of the majority of Christians by a long way, yet if the majority are gentle, patient, humble then why would history even bother to write it down?

[kalniel]

Apologies Kezzer, my point wasn't intended as a flame. I personally have no issue with any one person's beliefs so long as they cause no harm to others. I'm also not a subscriber to any particular belief system, but I do like the idea of some form of divine being. I'm now reading the thread from the beginning and see that it's drifted somewhat from the original post.

My point is that crazy people sometimes do crazy things in the name of religion, and that it's easy to blame the religion for that rather than look for a cause of the person's behaviour. Granted this can sometimes be seen as the religion, but often it's easiest to apply the "religious nutter" tag.

*nods* That point has been made

[Kezzer]

Apologies Kezzer, my point wasn't intended as a flame. I personally have no issue with any one person's beliefs so long as they cause no harm to others.

No no, my apologies, I didn't mean to seem like I was retaliating, I was being totally sincere

My point is that crazy people sometimes do crazy things in the name of religion, and that it's easy to blame the religion for that rather than look for a cause of the person's behaviour. Granted this can sometimes be seen as the religion, but often it's easiest to apply the "religious nutter" tag.

Religion can cause lots of harm, but yes, it's down to the individual as opposed to the religion. That's like reading a book about murder then going out to murder someone and blaming it on the book as opposed to your sanity.

I know lots of nutters, but it's mainly because they're intensely passionate as opposed to crazy. Even I get overwhelmed by some Christians and I'm a Christian myself

[TeePee]

Other reasons for the crusades? Sure! I never said there wasn't. But it's still christian people doing these things. The same with the inquisition. Different people and different interpretations. Just because you think your interpretation is right doesn't mean all christianity has always agreed with you.

These good traits may be clearly listed in the bible for some people, but not for others. Christians are selective. If the bible could be pared down to the few parts which make sense, don't contradict each other and only supply a moral code supporting those good traits it would make for a better religion.

[Akira]

No no, my apologies, I didn't mean to seem like I was retaliating, I was being totally sincere



Religion can cause lots of harm, but yes, it's down to the individual as opposed to the religion. That's like reading a book about murder then going out to murder someone and blaming it on the book as opposed to your sanity.

I know lots of nutters, but it's mainly because they're intensely passionate as opposed to crazy. Even I get overwhelmed by some Christians and I'm a Christian myself

I know a girl who works for the Salvation Army who really does despair at some of the publicity that Christians on th whole get so you're not alone there

[Splash]

Christians are selective. If the bible could be pared down to the few parts which make sense, don't contradict each other and only supply a moral code supporting those good traits it would make for a better religion.

This being my case in point - could you not replace the word "Christian" with "Muslim" or in fact pretty much any other religion in this context?

[TeePee]

The point is, you can't say the religion is good, based on your interpretation of it, any more than you can say the religion is bad just because Hitler's interpretation resulted in a lot of evil things.

[kalniel]

Ok so are you now accepting the point several people were trying to make that you can't say the religion is bad based on the interpretation of a small minority?

[Akira]

Of course you can still say it's bad as it removes one's free will whilst assuring you that you do, indeed have free will (just do as I say or your eternal soul gets it).

[nichomach]

The point is, you can't say the religion is good, based on your interpretation of it, any more than you can say the religion is bad just because Hitler's interpretation resulted in a lot of evil things.

Bluntly, Hitler's policies had damn-all to do with his interpretation of Christianity, and a lot more to do with the fact that he was barking; his justification for extermination of the Jews wasn't that they weren't Christian but that they were responsible for Germany's economic ills, and that they were genetically inferior - Hitler being a strong believer in practical eugenics. He also believed that Slavs were inferior (and consequently could be eliminated) as well as Roma and a host of other racial groups, and he had a good bash at wiping a lot of them out as well, even though a great many of them were not only Christian but Roman Catholic as well. On that basis, we should stop all genetic research, since someone else could pervert that to serve their own ends in similar fashion.

[kalniel]

Of course you can still say it's bad as it removes one's free will whilst assuring you that you do, indeed have free will (just do as I say or your eternal soul gets it).

But what if the 'do as I say' only ever equals 'do what you want'? Isn't that still free will? Of course, you always have the free will not to accept Christianity.

[nichomach]

Other reasons for the crusades? Sure! I never said there wasn't. But it's still christian people doing these things. The same with the inquisition. Different people and different interpretations. Just because you think your interpretation is right doesn't mean all christianity has always agreed with you.

So if an atheist were doing the same things, atheism would be bad, then. In effect, we can take the example of Stalin and use that to prove that atheism is evil, right? Wrong. Again, just because nominal adherents of a belief system are driven by secular considerations to commit evil acts, that doesn't mean that the belief system is wrong.

These good traits may be clearly listed in the bible for some people, but not for others. Christians are selective. If the bible could be pared down to the few parts which make sense, don't contradict each other and only supply a moral code supporting those good traits it would make for a better religion.

Already been done:
"What is the greatest commandment?"
"There are two. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and mind and soul, and love thy neighbour as thyself. On these hang all the law and the prophets."

[Kezzer]

Already been done:
"What is the greatest commandment?"
"There are two. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and mind and soul, and love thy neighbour as thyself. On these hang all the law and the prophets."

Don't forget "thouest shall neverest wearest thy socks inside out"

[nichomach]

Drat...knew I'd get SOMETHING wrong today...

[JPreston]

His actions don't typically match those which we associate as those of Christians, namely: gentleness, compassion, kindness, humility, patience, love and joy...if he was Christian I certainly don't agree with his interpretation of things, and once more point you to the previous posts about judging Christians based on the actions of a minority....

Those aren't actions I'd associate with christians

I pick up the point about hitler because more than once in this thread it's christians who have given hitler as an example of atheism gone bad.

My point is that it's ridiculous to judge a philosophy held by millions by the actions of one individual who holds it, but it's even more ridiculous to judge by the actions of one individual who held the completely opposite view.

However, it's not ridiculous to judge a whole group partly by the actions of a sub-group, when that sub-group number 30 million (TeePee's numbers), have wildly disproportionate influence over america's public affairs not to mention nuk-u-lar arsenal, and are all as crazy as this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B9GlayKS_0

...because if people like me say and do nothing, what will people like you say or do? Say that while you might disagree with elements of their interpretation of christianity their faith is valid, to be highly respected and vigorously defended? Because it is none of those things.

[nichomach]

Those aren't actions I'd associate with christians

Then you don't know that many.

I pick up the point about hitler because more than once in this thread it's christians who have given hitler as an example of atheism gone bad.

Actually, Hitler was raised in this thread by one of your cohort, Stewart, on p16 in a spurious attempt to assert some connection between his actions and Christianity. Indeed most attempts to raise him in this thread have been to assert that he was representative somehow of Christians, not atheists, cf yourself and TeePee on pp25-26, yourself AGAIN on p29...you keep trotting out the same assertion again and again, despite the fact that it's demonstrably nonsense. In fact, when dictators have been raised by me, for instance, I've generally gone for Stalin and made the point that one CAN'T extrapolate an assessment of the morality of a belief or lack thereof .from the actions of one evil man

My point is that it's ridiculous to judge a philosophy held by millions by the actions of one individual who holds it, but it's even more ridiculous to judge by the actions of one individual who held the completely opposite view.

If you're still wurbling about Hitler, as has been noted above, he used whatever political leverage he could get, but his actions against Jews and other racial groups weren't predicated upon his putative perverse view of Christianity, but upon his provable perversion of science.

However, it's not ridiculous to judge a whole group partly by the actions of a sub-group, when that sub-group number 30 million (TeePee's numbers),

It is when their numbers are dwarfed massively by the number of Christians who don't belong to it.

have wildly disproportionate influence over america's public affairs not to mention nuk-u-lar arsenal, and are all as crazy as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B9GlayKS_0

Actually, I tend to say a lot about that; the disproportionate influence that this particular branch have gained says nothing about the morality of Christianity in general, but speaks volumes for their abilities as political manipulators. They still represent a pretty small minority.

...because if people like me say and do nothing, what will people like you say or do?

Oppose them, as we already do.
I wonder if we can take bets on how many posts you get through before AGAIN trying to make some spurious connection between Hitler's actions and Christianity.