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About LinkBacksMy point exactly; actually it IS a court martial proceeding, it's just that the prosecuting authority is independent.
My point exactly; actually it IS a court martial proceeding, it's just that the prosecuting authority is independent.
*pours RVF a cuppa, and settles back*
Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
errr.... at what point did anybody condone what saddam and his croonies did?
I also do not think we should be compareing scales of attrocitys here, we are there under a mandate of restoring these peoples human rights and bringing them democracy not to detain random civillians and beat one or two to death.
The people responsible for killing those Iraqi ministers have no such mandate and are simply trying to cause chaos, of course I condemn it but I also expect it from them.
I do not think that its unresonable to expect our better educated and trained soilders to behave better than this. If they dont then they should be punished and of course that is exactly what I think should happen, what I dont agree with is people saying, "oh it isnt that bad, look at what saddam did!". We are not saddam hussain and I expect better from our armed forces, as should every other brit.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
But given that you're scrabbling around for isolated instances which, I should note, are already being dealt with via courts martial, and given your attitude towards the war in the first place, then you do give the appearance of characterising ALL of the coalition forces as being represented by those very few wrongdoers, and rather ignoring the fact that those transgressions are being dealt with whereas much worse under the previous regime would have been actively promoted.
what...?
when exactly did I say that this was being done by the majority of our troops? I never said that because there is no evidence to support such a statement. My point was that just because those photos are fake (well, if you belive the government that is..) and that those incidents did not occur does not deminish the fact that these abuses have been happening (there are other photos from back in november) and that detainees have died in british custody.
I find it very convinent that these photos turned out to be fake because it allows the government to give the impression that all of these claims are exaggerated or did not happen. This is not the case as shown in the IIRC report.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
It doesn't diminish the fact that a small number of abuses may well have been committed and are under the investigation of independent prosecutors with a view to establishing court martial proceedings, you mean? And if the government were so keen to deny all the claims, why would the Attorney General be backing the APA to prosecute?
so... you actually agree with me then and concede that these things were going on?
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
I agree that there may well have been an extremely small number of such incidents which are already being investigated and which are or will be the subject of legal proceedings, as opposed to the situation prior to the troops being there where abuses were the rule rather than the exception and where such acts were rewarded rather than condemned. A major qualitative difference, and a good enough reason for our troops being there in itself.
The photos were fake. Anyone with any knowledge of the usage of military equipment by our forces saw it immediately. As did anyone with any knowledge of human reaction to being beaten up. Providing of course one wasn't conveniently ignoring the facts to support a personal political model.
They weren't conveniently fake. Whether the government used the fact that they were fake to try to diminish other events is pure opportunism on their part and does not detract from the inexcusability of printing them in the first place.
Photos that were developed back in November are currently being investigated. If individuals are guilty then they will be punished.
There are thousands of British troops in Iraq. There are a tiny number of bad apples amongst them. The same as in any section of society. Some of them will do things wrong. There is more violence outside a pub after England loses a game of football than is being meted out by our troops in what is essentially a war zone.
The one person who is not facing prosecution is really someone who should. Piers Morgan. I think inciting racial hatred might be one to look at. Nichomach is much better equipped than I to argue that point though.
"You want loyalty? ......get a dog!"
Fake if you believe the government ?
They are fake if you believe the MIRROR !
They printed a retraction, conceding that the pictures were fake. Why is it you unhesitatingly believed the Mirror when it first published these faked pictures but now seemingly cannot accept what they are now saying as fact ?
Is it because the facts now do not support your agenda ?
aye if he dident step down he was to be sacked anyway
What gets me is that the types of torture being used by the US and the Brits is the same, i.e. sexual humiliation and generally torture that has been tailored to particularly affect the arab Psyche, so the CIA goes to the bother of modifying torture techniques for an arab "audience" and passes this info on to the Brits yet apparently they are acting independently and not systematically, go on pull the other one it has bells on.
Strange analogy this one, I think it is an attempt at justifying violence but in fairness all this "scale of atrocity" justification that you guys are doing is so pathetic, either Iraq is better without torturers whoever they may be or they are not. The moral high ground was lost when the tactics used by the ousted regime were copied.
The fact that the photos were faked was unfortunate for the Iraqis as real ones would not have allowed the smoke screen which has since actually overtaken the issue of the abuses which is a real pity for Iraqis who have since been murdered by overzealous interrogators.
See for all your support of your troops, THEY are the ones that are involved in the illegal occupation of Iraq with no mandate from anyone, motive being a need to secure oil reserves and bolster Israels regional security among other things, so the fact is that not much has changed in Iraq, there is still murder and torture of the people and they are still not allowed self-determination, but some of you would try to convince us that the people are better off again with the "scale of atrocity" rubbish that helps you to sleep at night what with supporting a murderous illegal invasion I suppose you need something to feel warm and fluffy about.
I ask any of you to come up with a reason why the US and UK would be using the same techniques that are specially adapted from the standard stress and torture techniques of hooding and positioning, without having being briefed on technique and collaborating with each other, or maybe that is just a fabrication or something too?
Yep RVF they're really showing themselves up as ingrates what, they dont even appreciate all the effort that you guys are going to to "liberate" ( seems to mean also murder these days, the ultimate freedom is death I suppose ) them. The bazaar was safe until the US/UK illegal invasion force made it unsafe, get things right, Iraq was also a secular state before the illegal invasion so your Taliban II quip is a crock. A group of people cherry picked as CIA stooges are not exactly trying to lead the Iraqis to independence. As an ex-squaddie I dont really expect you to stray from the "government" line and show a bit of independent thinking as that would be almost "treasonous" in your position.
Spot the difference here, Baha Mousa was an Iraqi in Iraq murdered in his own country , what the MP's had done wrong exactly is to be involved in an illegal occupation of a sovereign country which make them legitimate targets for any Iraqi resistance under international law, so the difference was the peoples legal status in Iraq, this doesn't seem to concern many of you though as you have already decided the occupation is legal which is wishful thinking but a fallacy. Wait for the war crimes trials, Blair is screwed as UK has signed up to the ICC and they will be out for his skin soon.
Main point of this is how the torture techniques are the same if there are not widespread and agreed upon methods....anyone????
The Cow by Ogden Nash
The cow is of the bovine ilk;
One end is moo, the other, milk.
Probably because every culture has been studied in the world at some, so the different authorities in the coalition have always had someone to call upon to inquire on the mentality of people. In this case, the middle-east (ie mass homophobia, resentment to being compared to dogs) and as these appear to be very strong views over there, (at least judging by the response the pictures got), it was a common method of humiliation adopted to obtain the results they wanted.
I know the methods would be disgusting here as well, but nowhere near on the same scale as the Middle East, and it seems like the army trainers caught on to that fact and taught the wrong people what to do.
So you are saying that there were central decisions made as in they decided what methods to use and briefed their soldiers. There are claims being made that this was an isolated incident and not policy, your answer suggests policy is this what you are saying?
The Cow by Ogden Nash
The cow is of the bovine ilk;
One end is moo, the other, milk.
Yes and No,
While that is what i said, it IS speculation on my end. IMO somebody quite high up MUST have been aware of it all, and yet the arrests only seemed to begin to occur in large quantities after photos came up. Once the photos were out there were a plethora of Special Forces and Army sources that claimed cetain members were trained in harsh interrogation methods on perhaps weaker scale to those provided. This could suggest that the wrong people had a basic knowledge and used the 'skills' gained in completely the wrong way (maybe provoked by the whole bloodlust approached by the US army training). Just what i reckon, mind.
OK fair enough, I was just asking what you were inferring while acknowledging that your say is not definitive. But generally you would think that the knowledge was disseminated and not just picked up along the way or that they happened to use the same techniques by chance.
You cant let your guys off the hook though with the US training thing, the UK according to Amnesty international a few years back were the most advanced army in interrogation techniques worldwide which they honed in Northern Ireland, they dont need any "evil" Amerikkkans to help.
The Cow by Ogden Nash
The cow is of the bovine ilk;
One end is moo, the other, milk.
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