Pro-Fox Hunting lobby

[TeePee]

Direct Action is wrong, no matter what the cause, and police should be given greater powers to arrest and imprison offenders.

Hunting with dogs, while not my idea of an afternoons entertainment, is the only way to manage a deer herd. No more hunting, no more red deer.

Is it the toffs who will lose their jobs if hunting is gone? Or will it be the working class dog keepers, stableworkers etc?

The majority of the public do not want hunting banned, and the governments attempts to ban it are undemocratic.

Foxes are discusting vermin, who cares if they are being ripped apart? It's not like they are being used as a football and then left to suffer like the puppy. They either escape or they die quickly.

So says the most working class guy on these forums.

[Rave]

Agree, disagree, comment. Don't pick out a typo mate, it makes you look as if you couldn't think of anything to say, or in this case, type. Just a quick tip for you there, me old mucker. (That's working class for 'Some advice for you, old chap)

Alright, cheap shot and I apologise (I was drunk when I typed it).

I might attempt a reply to the rest of your points later, although quite how to argue with a man who states from the start that he favours predjudice over reasoned argument I'm not sure......

Rich :¬)

[G4Z]

TeePee, I find your statement that the majority of the public do not want hunting banned laughable tbh. It flys in the face of all the polls that have been done on the subject.

[coco]

Hunting foxes is wrong, kicking puppies to death is wrong, keeping chickens in battery cages is wrong. Ban them all, or STFU.

er.... i think you missed the point , its the way we have double standards regarding the treatment and welfare of animals, its acceptable to stuff 6 chickens into a cage so small they cant move , do it with puppies and you'll end up with 6 months in prison.
And i agree we should ban battery hen farming etc so please dont say STFU Rave.

[G4Z]

Just to back up my statement, I just lifted this of the BBC site

Should hunting with dogs be banned?
Yes
87%
No
13%
43234 Votes Cast


http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talki....stm?display=1

[Rave]

er.... i think you missed the point , its the way we have double standards regarding the treatment and welfare of animals, its acceptable to stuff 6 chickens into a cage so small they cant move , do it with puppies and you'll end up with 6 months in prison.
And i agree we should ban battery hen farming etc so please dont say STFU Rave.

The STFU wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at the government. Apologies if that wasn't clear . The double standard is what I object to. I have no problem with banning hunting in principle, as long as you ban every other form of animal cruelty at the same time.

Rich :¬)

[jimborae]

Hmm good debate so far. I'm not sure I can argue points as well as those before me but I would say this.

1. Polls don't mean anything. There are lies, damn lies & then there are statistics. It depends on where & what age group as to how a poll result is skewed.

2. Fox hunting is not purely an upper class sport or way of life. It a countryside way of life that covers all classes. The fact that there has been a shift in population & cultural life style away from the country side in the last century is probably the root of the oposition in todays society imo.

3. If hunting with dogs is banned on the basis cruelty then shouldn't all forms of hunting be banned including things such as fishing????

4. "Direct action is wrong" well possibly it is but some times there are no other options left to desperate people. Where would we be today without the poll tax riots? I was there when that happened and totally supported it. The Miners strikes in the 80's, direct action was needed there because the governmentwas acting illegally and there was no other way to combat the illegal & underhand tactics. I'm glad that the police would now appear to be under investigation for their savage treatment towards the protestors yesterday but I doubt any will actually be prosecuted unfortunately.

Personally I support the Countryside Alliance and there goals but then I suppose I'm biased as I grew up in farming country and hunts were a part of local village life. Yes its cruel, but so is life, and there are much worse things going on this country & abroad to which the Government should be devoting as much time & effort to as they are to fox hunting.

[G4Z]

well, I would agree that polls are allways skewed and they should not be taken as a reliable, it is just supporting evidence. There have been a lot of polls done and I think overall they show that the balance of opinion tends to be against hunting with dogs rather than for it.

I find it interesting that you admit its cruel, many of the pro-hunting guys on this forum argue that it is not cruel at all (a supposition I find stupid to say the least).

I also think you will find that it is NOT legal to go out hunting most animals, If I were to go round taking pot shots at pigeons I would be prosecuted for it if caught. (there was an incident near where I used to live in south shields where some kids had battered a load of seagulls to death). I dont understand why there is a distinction, the distinction I make between fishing and hunting is that hunting is for fun, fishing is for food. I doubt many fishermen that dont intend to eat their catch kill the fish for the fun of it, they put it back dont they?

As for direct action, the more I think about it the more I disagree with it, There are many other established ways to protest. I understand that its frustrating because the current govt does not seem to listen to the people (Iraq anyone?) but I think its different in this case because it was a free vote. It is my understanding that there was no free vote on the Iraq war so I think people have more right to feel a bit indignat as it all came down to party politics in the end and Blair got his way.

[TeePee]

Polls.
The BBC ran two polls on fox hunting on 26-6-2. The first found 52% in favour of a ban. The second found only 26% in favour, and 74% opposed. Accurate?

Sky news found only 51% opposed to a ban. The independant found 33% in favour. The Sun, a newspaper for the working class if ever there was one, found 73% opposed to a ban.

I'm sure you can quote a dozen polls showing support for a ban but I will say again, the majority of the public do not want hunting banned. Those who do are a particularly vocal group, and it's good to see the pro-hunting lobby standing up for themselves at last, although the direct action is going too far.

[jimborae]

I seriously doubt you would be prosecuted for taking pot shots at pidgeons provided you had a vaild firearms license and were on private land. Pidgeon pie anyone??? Grouse shooting is a legal form of hunting and there are a few other too. The kids would have been prosecuted for for animal cruelty (don't ask me me fox hunting isn't coz I dont know)

As for a free vote, I don't believe in reality there is such a thing, its politics, played out by the lowest form of humanity i.e. politicians.

Direct action I still firmly believe in as an action of last resort, see previous comments regarding poll tax and miners strike. Maybe there's too much of the anachist in me to have strong faith in established forms of protest & disent

[G4Z]

Teepee, if polls are so unreliable (and they probably are) can I ask how it is that you know that the majority are against a ban?

Ignoring the polls, I can say with some certainty that most of the people I know support a ban, although one or two do support it and several simply dont care. so from my perspective there is support for this ban.

[Big RICHARD]

WTF? Why do people keep saying that hunting is a 'countryside way of life'?

I grew up in the countryside and have never known anyone who has gone hunting? What a crap argument! It isn't what all you city folk think in the countryside!

[Zathras]

It's a countryside way of life mainly for the landed gentry or wanabees only and a throwback to the feudal way of life when the peasants and farmers worked the land and the 'nobles' hunted on it. Working class 'country' equivalents of fox-hunting would be badger-baiting or cock-fighting, both of which have been rightly outlawed without anything like the protests. However when it's the rich sets' turn they throw a wobbly. Monbiot wrote a good article about the class perspective of fox-hunting yesterday in the Guardian.

[TeePee]

Well the majority of people I know either support hunting or don't care.

That argument seems to be good enough for you.

Actually my argument IS based on polls. Looking at as many polls as possible from independant organisations, such as the national papers, MORI and NOP and Gallup, all of which have shown a trend of support for hunting. Local papers almost all show overwhelming support for hunting, especially in rural areas and so are disregarded, as are polls conducted by the anti-hunting groups, which they themselves like to quote.

Actually, a more accurate statement, which I am sure you will agree with is that the vast majority of the british public simply do not care, and would rather see government time spent on the NHS than a hunting bill. The majority of people opposed to hunting are also mis-informed. This thread title refers specifically to fox hunting, yet this ban will also efferct deer hunting, which as I said before is essential to maintain the countryside, and Hare Coursing, which is a barbaric sport akin to badger baiting, and should have been banned long ago.

[G4Z]

Well, I dunno where you found these polls because earlier I came across this MORI poll http://www.mori.com/polls/1999/ms990715.shtml and it shows the exact opposite of what your saying.

I think you make a good point that people would rather the govt moved on and spent less time on this, but it seems as though the "old aristocracy" that resides in our house of lords has blocked it the past 16 times so therefore more time is wasted trying to push a ban through again.

I would also like you to explain to me how deer hunting is essential to maintain the countryside?

[Silence]

Actually, a more accurate statement, which I am sure you will agree with is that the vast majority of the british public simply do not care, and would rather see government time spent on the NHS than a hunting bill.

Couldn't agree more!

I have no opinion regarding fox hunting, however i do have a strong opinion regarding ill-informed, self-righteous protesters. That's not to say that all protesters are ill-informed, just that in my experience of discussing many views (not just those relating to fox hunting) with protesters, i have often found that the most passionate ones are usually the ones who are most narrow minded, and refuse point-blank to entertain viewpoints that are contrary to their belief. It is this type of protester that is the most dangerous.

Oh, and dont get me started on the Huntingdon Life Science protesters...