Pro-Fox Hunting lobby

[nichomach]

I would also like you to explain to me how deer hunting is essential to maintain the countryside?

The only extent to which the killing of deer would be affected is where it might be carried out by dogs; deer-hunting with a rifle wouldn't be affected at all, and that's the only responsible way to do it. Deer don't actually have any natural predators in the UK, and even if we reintroduced them, thanks to the extent of farming they'd have easier prey than deer to go for. Left unchecked, therefore, they'd defoliate large tracts of countryside, depriving other species of food and habitat, with consequent ill-effect on biodiversity.

Consider the example of the McCartneys and their Scottish island; significant deer population when they bought it. First year, the head gamekeeper wants to discuss the cull. Cue hands thrown up in horror and a terse injunction against any killing of deer. 3 years later, the island's largely defoliated and the deer are starving. Only then is the gamie allowed to do what he wanted in the first place and cull, but by that point, massive damage had been done.

Oh, and yes, I like venison

[Rave]

Stag hunting with hounds ranks alongside badger baiting in cruelty terms IMO. I really wouldn't moan at all if they outlawed that.

Rich :¬)

[TeePee]

Deer must be hunted as established above. They can be hunted with dogs, in which they are chased to until cornered and then shot (and not ripped apart by hounds as most anti-hunting people would have you believe) They can also be hunted with a rifle. The difference is that the guy with the rifle can and often does miss, and I've seen the result of this, when a deer has had it's lower jaw shot to pieces and died of dehydration since it couldn't drink. There are also problems with regulating this method. Hunting with dogs means that at the end of the day you either have a dead deer or a live and healthy one. You also have the huge community behind managing and maintaining the deer population, with many peoples livelihoods built up in that, and this means that the population is monitored, maintained and looked after. Just issuing hunting permits to riflemen does none of that.

Hunting with dogs has been banned in Scotland for several years now, and the result has already been damage to forestry in several areas and landowners have spent a lot of money trying to control the deer population. The longer term effects are unknown.

EDIT: MORI polls are commissioned by a particular entity, and there is often a bias to the questions. In this case the poll is commisioned by The Mail on Sunday, but MORI is also commisioned by CPHA. This particular poll is also biased by news stories running in the national papers at the time of the poll regarding the involvement of the royal family in hunting, and one particular hunting incident involving a clash with anti-hunt protestors.

[Stewart]

I might attempt a reply to the rest of your points later, although quite how to argue with a man who states from the start that he favours predjudice over reasoned argument I'm not sure......

Rich :¬)

Just do what I do when arguing with a man who's drunk, and you'll be fine mate.

It's a countryside way of life mainly for the landed gentry or wanabees only and a throwback to the feudal way of life when the peasants and farmers worked the land and the 'nobles' hunted on it. Working class 'country' equivalents of fox-hunting would be badger-baiting or cock-fighting, both of which have been rightly outlawed without anything like the protests. However when it's the rich sets' turn they throw a wobbly. Monbiot wrote a good article about the class perspective of fox-hunting yesterday in the Guardian.

Apart from the insane notion that you might find a good article in the Guardian, that was a very good post.

Yes of course its not entirely an upper class 'sport', but at the end of the day it matters not - its still a sport which invovles ripping animals apart for enjoyment.

[Rave]

Just do what I do when arguing with a man who's drunk, and you'll be fine mate.

What's that then?

Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow.

Rich :¬)

[TeePee]

Badger baiting, cock fighting and hare coursing (which involves releasing a hare into a field and setting dogs on it, and betting on which dog finishes off the hare, is unfortunately still legal) involve fighting between captive animals, an important distinction from fox and deer hunting.

[G4Z]

you what?

Are you telling me that a dozen hounds setting on to a single trapped/exhasted fox is somehow different from seeting a dog onto a badger or having a cockfight?

The only difference I can see is that nobody needs to stand there beating teh fox with a stick to make sure the dogs win.

[Zathras]

As for the loss of jobs, dogs etc, what's the problem with drag-hunting? Ask this to those who take the "local economy" line and they mutter and mumble then come out with something like "It's not the same, is it?", confirming that the killing of an animal is central to the hunts, not the gallop round the country or a good friendly toffs' get-together with the fox almost circumstantial that they'd have you believe.

[nichomach]

I have to admit, I do like the level of training that's apparent in being able to get a pack of dogs to pursue a deer for miles until it's almost collapsed from exhaustion and fear and then get them to sit down politely and wait for the chap with the gun to actually kill it. I didn't realise they had such good manners...

Seriously, yes, sometimes shooting a deer might go wrong, but the vast majority of the time a shot's going to destroy all the major structures in the chest cavity before the deer even knows what's hit it. And pretending that you don't get injured or crippled deer from pursuit with dogs is woefully disingenuous. It needs regulation, certainly, but then there are already regulatory frameworks in place; perhaps they could be improved or expanded, but they're there.

[Big RICHARD]

I have to admit, I do like the level of training that's apparent in being able to get a pack of dogs to pursue a deer for miles until it's almost collapsed from exhaustion and fear and then get them to sit down politely and wait for the chap with the gun to actually kill it. I didn't realise they had such good manners...

Seriously, yes, sometimes shooting a deer might go wrong, but the vast majority of the time a shot's going to destroy all the major structures in the chest cavity before the deer even knows what's hit it. And pretending that you don't get injured or crippled deer from pursuit with dogs is woefully disingenuous. It needs regulation, certainly, but then there are already regulatory frameworks in place; perhaps they could be improved or expanded, but they're there.

Nooooooooo! ....Must......not......agree......with..................Nichomach!

Oh bugger! Here here!

[ultimate]

Why must these imbeciles chase animals for their own bloodthirsty lust, they say it is to keep the population down which is absolute rubbish.

I live in countryside and at one time I was surrounded by foxes I could guarantee to see at least 10/12 a day then for some reason the population dwindled with no bloodthirsty idiots hounding them, I still see the foxes but in far less numbers, so to me nature looks after itself proving the imbeciles totally wrong (but now we have loads of rabbits)

I wish somebody would cull the the hunters

[Alex]

I suggest we institute "chav-hunting" for all those people who have lost their jobs

On a more serious note, how do people think that fox levels will be controlled now, given that hunting with dogs was the main method of fox control? I'm completely in agreement with the ban, but it does present something of a dilemma...

[Big RICHARD]

I suggest we institute "chav-hunting" for all those people who have lost their jobs

On a more serious note, how do people think that fox levels will be controlled now, given that hunting with dogs was the main method of fox control? I'm completely in agreement with the ban, but it does present something of a dilemma...

Is hunting with dogs the 'main method of fox control'?

I thought it was only a drop in the ocean???

[nichomach]

On a more serious note, how do people think that fox levels will be controlled now,

"Look, a cute little foxy-woxy... *BANG*...got the little ****!"

Sounds workable to me

[ultimate]

"Look, a cute little foxy-woxy... *BANG*...got the little ****!"

Sounds workable to me

Dont agree, but that is a better option that being chased for miles in terror then being ripped apart

[Skii]

Yep - Nicho's got it. Better be a clean shot though, wouldn't want him limping off wounded...