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About LinkBacksYes he is right, choice, we have it most of them dont
Yes he is right, choice, we have it most of them dont
One thing watching that program last night was the statistic on Britain coming under Islamic rule, I think not. Lets say the shoe was on the other foot and a mass emigration of Brits went to an Islamic country, do you think we would be able to turn around and say "Excuse me, so sorry to bother you but dump Islam and swap things to our way of life". Wouldn't happen at all would it. If you go to a country to live you take the choice to live elsewhere that isn't "home" so you shouldn't expect a whole country to change it ways and beliefs and systems to fit what you have come accustomed to.
As for the oppression of women in the Western World, like its been said before we see their way of life oppressive on women and they have the same view of us. Its because we are not used to it in our daily lives, we have our way and they have theirs. Although I never did quite understand why some people make their wives and daughters walk behind the father and sons. To me that is outright disgraceful, doesn't exactly convey a feeling of equality.
The other point they made was that their own Mosques didn't represent their Muslim beliefs and views, so how is that our governments issue or the people of Britain’s issue. If you can't run a mosque the way it should for your own religion why are you complaining about it. If I was a church going member of society and actually followed Christianity to the book and I went to church and it was incorrect or moved in a completely different direction I would make a point of putting my concerns across to the church, no point moaning about it.
All the show did was to reinforce my views that Religion isn't worth the paper it’s written on, its the root cause of problems between nations, hatred, acceptance and daily life. You hear people mouthing off all day every day about another person’s beliefs and ways of life. I have had this first hand whilst I studied at uni. All you got all day were people calling us Dirty White skins, we actually got called a modern day Hitler by one student as he was caught cheating and decided to pull the race card saying we shopped him because of his religion and all this was before the 9//11 where apparently the race hatred came about, its been about for years by all parties involved. In my opinion the world would be a better place if religion didn't exist. To me religion was a set of rules from thousands of years ago in order to keep their people in check, somewhat of a law system. Today its outdated, people interpret it their way and sometimes not the way its meant.
I don't believe that's true at all, people's misinterpretation of religion is the root cause of problems, not religion itself, i still think religion can teach some important lessons, not that i follow any particular belief or religion at the moment though. People would still wage wars, but use different excuses.Originally Posted by Grey M@a
I thought that there was another interesting point made in the program about how our government is misrepresenting us, i think this was part of the reason that some Muslims would prefer Shiara rule, because they believe that our government are not listening to what the people want, hence Muslims believe democracy isn't working at least for them. There are certainly many laws passed by this government that i wouldn't have voted for.
How can you say democracy isn't working for the Muslim people of Britain when the program clearly stated that almost 70% of the Muslim community don't even know who their representative is. He's not hiding up a tree or erasing his details, name, contact details from the phone books or websites for the Government. If you open your eyes its amazing what you can find with a bit of digging. I don't turn around and say "my local MP isn't representing me" just because I don't know who he or she is. I go and find out who they are so I can contact them.
So laziness is now the British Governments fault is it! Even I know who the Muslim representative is for the current government and I'm not Muslim, he is Sir Iqbal Sacrani and he is the head of the MCB who is the main representative party to put forward the issues faced by the muslim communities to the present Government. So instead of laying blame at the feet of those who run the country, why not have a word with the department that represents the community as they are obviously not doing their job.
What I will say is, Sir Iqbal Sacrani is the wrong man for the job, he is the one who is misrepresenting the muslim community in this country. He has recently been on the news and is now being investigated due to his homophobic jabberings on the news. It would be a wise decision to get rid of him and get someone else who can represent the Muslim community.
Last edited by Grey M@a; 08-08-2006 at 10:29 AM.
Ah sorry, i'm wrong then in that respect, i never thought about it like that. I wonder how many Muslims voted in the last elections.How can you say democracy isn't working for the Muslim people of Britain when the program clearly stated that almost 70% of the Muslim community don't even know who their representative is. He's not hiding up a tree or erasing his details, name, contact details from the phone books or websites for the Government. If you open your eyes its amazing what you can find with a bit of digging. I don't turn around and say "my local MP isn't representing me" just because I don't know who he or she is. I go and find out who they are so I can contact them. So laziness is now the British Governments fault is it! Even I know who the Muslim representative is for the current government and I'm not Muslim
Edit: just to add something though, i don't think its laziness that's the reason people don't know who represents them, i think its because they just don't care, the apathy in this country as a whole to democratic process is appalling.
As another separate point there are Muslims too who are trying to set up a unified voice for Muslims in this country, i was quite surprised to see how critical they were of their own religous leaders.
Last edited by kasavien; 08-08-2006 at 10:38 AM.
I thought it was a very well balanced program - just comparing the results of the survey with one a professor had done a few years back to try and convey the changes in the muslim community over the years. The thrust of the program was that integration seems to have stalled for them with many of them feeling that our society has gone too far in liberalisation (which is understandable when you see drunken slappers swearing/smacking each other on a friday night) and therefore retreating back into the teachings of their religion. Jon Snow put across that a lot of this was 'seperatism' - clearly different from the widely held view that it's 'extremism' - with younger muslims wanting to distance themselves from what they see as the ills of our society. The danger seems to be that this leads to isolation from those around them and this then can lead to a sense of being powerless in society (and perhaps open you to those with a strong voice/strong views on how to change things via violence). Really, the program wasn't biased IMHO - in fact it was very informative to to hear the views of both ends of the scale as well as reassuring that the vast majority aren't that extreme as to resort to violence.
From my own point of view, I have muslim relatives in Malaysia - a country which is ruled by an islamic government but is actually made up of 50% of other religions all of which co-exist _extremely_ well. It's a very laid back country and I think all the better for the mix of cultures which make it up. I went there shortly after 9/11 and perhaps the most illuminating thing I could say is that you could buy George Bush/Remember the twin towers T-shirts on one side of the street and Osama shirts on the other.. In fact, when I didn't shave for a few days the locals coined the phrase 'you're looking a bit osama today'
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
Well, i think that if they come to this country and get all the benefits that this country has to offer and they want British Citizenship then they should be like us native brits. We could never dream of going to live in the middle east and demanding that they change things to suit us! They would throw us out!
As for the women covering up, what a load of rubbish! Let the women dress the way they want for goodness sake. The men can. Stupid rule that women have to wear pillar box dresses.
Never saw the program myself but have seen a few other programs on the religion, it's teachings and the schools that some of the radicals send their young ones to. I also don't personally believe in the 'doing it for religion' statements that seemed to be used to justify the killing of innocent people. I know quite a few Muslims and they vermantly inform me that the Koran does not have any mention of killing people in the name of religion.
From a Western point of view due to the almost second nature of religious believe I suppose it does come as a surprise/shock how religiously inclined some people are or can be and I personally can't see the cause or understand the 'cause' that leads them.
This is the last time i'm going to say this - women DO NOT have to cover up, its people that misinterpret the qur'an that make them cover up. and besides most Mulsim women in this country that do cover up do it by choice, not because they feel they have to.
There was an interesting discussion on the program between two muslims, a Muslim was talking to john snow, who was trying to say to the Mulsim that he should live by this countries laws if he is accepting its benefits, the Muslim was trying to argue that he shouldn't. But then a Second Muslim came and argued against the first in agreement with john snow. So its not all Muslims that want to live under shiara rule in this country. Maybe Dangel could come and describe that discussion better than i just have
Not all but probably 99%!!
Well, that was a scientific assessment, Koolpc...
All of "us native brits" have different ideas about how we would like our society to be; there's no "one size fits all" and the vast majority of Muslims that I've seen are perfectly happy to abide by our laws. Perhaps they would like to see some of them changed, but there's enough of "us native brits" who would too. So what if they don't want to dress the same as we do? My wife lectures at a university with a significant number of Muslim students, some of whom adopt traditional dress, some of whom don't. She's actually ASKED some of her women students who do wear traditional dress whether it's because they've been pressured to do so, and the overwhelming response has been that they choose to dress traditionally, partly because of their faith and partly because they feel less subject to being judged by whether they're pretty or not, and they're less subject to being hassled. Perhaps, Koolpc, you'd like to tell the Sikhs that turbans are banned. I know, let's ban the yarmulkah as well. Then we can enforce the traditional British dress of a dodgy tracksuit from JJB, a baseball cap and a bottle of cheap cider; far superior, obviously.
Good idea. Get everyone who lives in the UK to wear tracksuits!
I believe that most of the women might 'say' that they 'want' to dress like that but deep down i know that many dont as i have asked a few that i know and they have told me it is tradition and also frowned upon by some in thier community if they wanted to dress in a western manner. A lot of these women are afraid to stand up and go against the norm for them.
Last edited by Koolpc; 08-08-2006 at 12:42 PM.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight...so if they're agreeing with you, they're telling the truth, but if they aren't, they're liars. I'll have to remember that...
Grow up mate. Keep the discussion on track for goodness sake!
lol
all i will say is respect the culture of the people who's land it is.
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