City Bonus - Why does the UK media hate it?

[badass]

If it means that everyone has an equal opportunity in regards to schooling, public services, and that no matter what your children choose to do to fulfill their life they won't have to be focused on making money? That's Everyone's kids, not just the rich-kids. That sounds like the human race moving forward to a better more intelligent and educated society rather than a 2-layer rich/poor one.

That sounds fantastic. That's how I found it to be in Denmark - no-one is stinking rich, but everyone's kids have very similar opportunities thanks to a free and unbiased system of health, schooling, social services, etc.

BTW I don't know where you get 75% - definitely not necessary. However even in England I'm sure that 2% have 50% of the wealth, of which I'm not involved I'm sure of that.

Is Denmark not one of the richest countries on this planet, per capita?

I like this idea of yours though - everyone does what they want and gets enough to get by for it. I'd have 2 jobs, part time porn star and part time racing driver.
Oh, wait a minute, so does a lot of other people.
Wait - who wants to clean the offices?
No one?
Who wants to pick the litter off the streets?
Now if you wanted true equality, it would have to be the world over. Thats right - $100 per year for you.
What are you planning on spending it on?

[revol68]

So in short you got the same opportunities these middle class people you clearly despise have had, and decided not to toe the line.
Well everyone has to do things they dont enjoy doing to get where they want to, apart from you it seems. Or do you actually believe that everyone loves working long hours, studying boring material, putting up with bullying bosses and generally being exploited as far as the company they work for can get away with
I suppose you think we like being woken at 2am because a director in America wants internet access and the IT staff over there have thrown all of your carefull planning and preperation to sh1t by ignoring your instructions.

Reality check time: in order to make decent money in this world you cant just do what you want to do
Now get off your high horse having a go at everyone here that got off their arses and did something with their lives because you were too busy getting in "trouble for disobediance and not having enough respect for authority and school protocol" to have "knuckled down, tipped my cap and played along"
If you want to go "learning for learnings sake" then by all means do so but dont moan when people get paid more than you for the same hours because that actually applied their learning and are prepared to put up with more cr@p.

Well everyone has to do things they dont enjoy doing to get where they want to, apart from you it seems. Or do you actually believe that everyone loves working long hours, studying boring material, putting up with bullying bosses and generally being exploited as far as the company they work for can get away with

No I was under the illusion people loved it, oh wait my whole argument is that it's ****e and furthermore it's ****e that is inherent to capitalism. My whole point is that why the **** should we accept it? Furtermore why is the world like this? What structures, social relations and rules maintain an economic system in which the vast, vast majority of the worlds population have to sell themselves in order just to live any sembelance of a decent life? Why did I work in a call centre phoning people up to annoy them with ****e they didn't want? Why does my mum earn less looking after elderly people than I do for sitting testing a fecking insurance website? Why is it just "the way of the world" that millions starve whilst food mountains are dumped in the sea? Why in the name of christ do we spend our lives doing things we hate, for people we hate, for industries we hate? How come we live in a world where Bill Gates charity is lauded, when we don't question the immorality of someone being able to have more economic muscle than millions, that we are reduced to the good nature and whim of billionaires?

These things aren't isolated "issues", they are the consequences of an economic system based on the seperation of the vast majority from the means of production, of subsistence. When kids in Argentina were dying of malnourishment whilst it continued to being one of the worlds largest exporters of beef? Where the working class of New Orleans had pigs point guns at them so as to protect the sanctity of property, even as it floated in flood waters.

yes I live in this world, and I have to pimp myself out everyday, to sit here having my mind sucked out in order to make some shareholders richer, to accumulate capital in order to accumulate more capital. I however don't think this world is natural, god given, or justifiable, rather it is all too human, it is a world lorded over by capitalism, a world that was not eternal nor inevitable but born from brutality, from the slave trade and colonies that flowed into England to facilitate the industrial revolution, to the callous land clearances that forced millions off the land into the growing urban centres, to feed the factories and mills. This is not mere historical interest, it is a constant process, you only have to look at China and India.

I do not want to go back to the idiocy of rural feudal life, i do not want to give up the developments we have had under capitalism, rather I want them seized and set to use for benefit of real humans, not for abstract economies and markets.

So as such the issue of city bonus's are superflous, they only serve as another drip in an ocean of irrationalism and injustice, getting rid of them changes nothing, but understanding the logic behind them would go a longway in grasping the root of the problem.

[revol68]

I'll admit I've not read all of this post, but the hypocracy is unbelieveable. I challenge anyone here to justify their salary when there are millions of children dying every day in Africa and other places. Whether you'll earn £13,000 or £130,000 this year, everyone here is still 'overpaid' when you consider the global community and the poverty within it.

Whether you go home tonight to your 1 bedroom flat or your 12 bedroom mansion, you'll have a roof over your head and food in your fridge, which is a lot more than can be said for some people.

I'm just as hypocritical as everyone else, but you'll not catch me whining that I deserve more money. I don't, and wager you don't either - whatever you do.

I'm not whinging that I should ge their million quid bonus, i'm pointing out that the logic that gives out million quid bonus's to bankers is the same logic that see's millions starve. That the reason I have to sell myself in order just to have a roof, food, heating and some little indulgences is the same reason why kids in Niger starved whilst food flooded out of the country. The reason is capitalism, and all the guilt in the world is not going to change it.

[JPreston]

I'll admit I've not read all of this post, but the hypocracy is unbelieveable. I challenge anyone here to justify their salary when there are millions of children dying every day in Africa and other places. Whether you'll earn £13,000 or £130,000 this year, everyone here is still 'overpaid' when you consider the global community and the poverty within it.

Whether you go home tonight to your 1 bedroom flat or your 12 bedroom mansion, you'll have a roof over your head and food in your fridge, which is a lot more than can be said for some people.

I'm just as hypocritical as everyone else, but you'll not catch me whining that I deserve more money. I don't, and wager you don't either - whatever you do.

Ah then you might like/be horrified by this website:

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

....that ranks you in the world's earnings list.

I don't think anyone has said that they deserve more money, only that whatever you have spent your year doing a £50million bonus is undeserved and would have been better given to the exploited cleaners that work for the same company. How much difference did it make for the recipient, compared to how much difference even a tiny fraction of it could have made to so many more people on the same payroll.

Though one can argue that every pound that we do not spend on satisying our basic need for food and shelter has the blood of an African child on it, that's a bit off-topic. All the same:

$73 could buy you a new mobile phone OR a new mobile health clinic to care for AIDS orphans in Uganda.

$2400 could buy you a second generation High Definition TV OR schooling for an entire generation of school children in an Angolan village.

[TheAnimus]

First off, JPreston, assumptions, well they in this case will discredit your argument emensly.

I left main stream (state) education at the age of 13.

I have 5 GCSEs (BBBCC).

I went to a very good (mostly because of its staff) state 6th form college. Where i got my 3 A-levels (CCC) with a C in AS futher maths. You can imagine the problems 3 years outside mainstream education gave me.

Uni choices where limited incredibly by my GCSEs (or lack there off), so i ended up in Reading who after interview where good enough to give me an unconditional. I then got a 2-1.

A 2-1 from a red brick. God damnit i'm so lucky to have such rich parents, that put me in a prevaledged posistion. However i am VERY lucky too be born in the UK where every optertunity i need was there for me, nothing more than my birth place passport matters.

Now you can imagine how badly i get ripped on, because yes, there are people with Phds from Christs Cambridge. I also have major learning disabilities.

Cleaners. I don't look down on them by any extent, but lets assume that cleaning was as difficult as developing COM+ (which having done both, i do not belive). So in at 8am, out at 8pm, mon-fri, or in at 10am, out by 4pm. Hmm. Which is harder?

Now, assume you want to go xmas shopping (take a half day) if your a cleaner, its easy to get your shift covered, you work from a large pool.

If your a trader, or a quant then its no so simple to replace your roll. An example of this is a developer working on the flow exotics pricing system, was at his grandfarthers funeral. He was needed, a biker in the end had to be dispatched to contact him. He left his grandfarthers funeral early.

A dangerous looking coffee stain isn't going to do that.
That is why cleaners earn less. Not to mention its mostly outsourced to agency staff.

Now care workers, i'm not malinging the efforts they make, but lets assume that they are grossly negligant. 1 of their care dies, lawsuite, how much can you put on the price of a human life, odds are it will be below 5m.

Traders, they can loose that in a heartbeat (if they are stupid).

Careworkers on the other hand do have a more emotional stress, i found my work with 'disadvantaged' school kids heart renching.

But, it still dosen't make it wrong that someone is getting a £5m bonus, from a frim they're responsible for making 5 times that for?

The city really dosen't descriminate against background, i am pretty much proof of that, granted you want to present yourself properly, and conduct yourself in a manner becoming of the gentry, but for me its polishing my shoes, £7.50 pair of cufflinks from debinhams, m&s machine washable suite, and asking if anyone in my team wants a coffee twice a week.

My parents always told me that i should be greatful for what i've got in life (this was rather apparent when my dad was made redundant from the army, at the same time my mothers crippeling ilness began to set in (addisonian now)).

If your not earning £50m, guess what, its your fault (enless your not brit cit, german cit, usa cit.........).

[TheAnimus]

I don't think anyone has said that they deserve more money, only that whatever you have spent your year doing a £50million bonus is undeserved and would have been better given to the exploited cleaners that work for the same company. How much difference did it make for the recipient, compared to how much difference even a tiny fraction of it could have made to so many more people on the same payroll.

Once again i beg to differ, the cleaners take the job with the expected pay package they get in their contract.

The 50million bonus people (i'd imagine, not working for a firm who pays anyone that much) will have an expected performance bonus rate, ie, the guy had been promised 50m if he made the comany n million.

Thats the difference.

Also our cleaners are costing just under £10 an hour.

[revol68]

If your not earning £50m, guess what, its your fault (enless your not brit cit, german cit, usa cit.........).

Intellectual excercise for you, imagine everyone took responsibility for themselves and somehow managed to get city jobs with million quid bonus's?

Just think for a second the chaos the world would descend into if cleaners, doctors, nurses, teachers, firefighters, builders, shop assistants, care workers, all decided to "get motivated" to "assume responsibility", "quit whinging" and went out there and became city brokers?

Now imagine it the other way round? I think I know what world I'd rather live in.

Muppet.

[TheAnimus]

Intellectual excercise for you, imagine everyone took responsibility for themselves and somehow managed to get city jobs with million quid bonus's?

Just think for a second the chaos the world would descend into if cleaners, doctors, nurses, teachers, firefighters, builders, shop assistants, care workers, all decided to "get motivated" to "assume responsibility", "quit whinging" and went out there and became city brokers?

Now imagine it the other way round? I think I know what world I'd rather live in.

Muppet.

No, because supply and demand is also involved in this. If you've got perfomance related pay, and more people willing to do it, the simple way to think of it is the reward been lower. So no, it wouldn't happen like that.

I will probably never earn 50m (unless brown runs rampent, and some hyper inflation occurs), i don't want to have to work hard enough too, i'm happy with a lot less money.

Now imagine if everyone wanted to be a cleaner. No one wanted to be a consultant surgon (again get paid well, even NHS ones) then what would happen? No one would be in a posistion to need a cleaner in the first place. 'Salt of the earth' is only possible because of the demand too.

[TheAnimus]

Muppet.

quick question for you.

Do you think labour's minimum wage

A helped cleaners.
B made them poorer (net).

[revol68]

what are you babbling about. The only way supply and demand can work is if there is limited resources/places. Therefore you are actually admitting that is impossible for everyone to earn such ridiculous sums of money. Even if we were to assume that everyone had equal oppurtunity to earn such money (absurd in itself) that would only mean anybody can earn that money, which is distinctly different than everyone.

Anyone can win the lottery but everyone certainly can't.

For someone who works in the city your grasp of basic economics is awful.

[revol68]

quick question for you.

Do you think labour's minimum wage

A helped cleaners.
B made them poorer (net).

It had various results depending on various factors, for some it raised their wages, whilst for others it led to a drop as the minimum became the de facto maximun.

Anyway back to the point in hand.

[badass]

Intellectual excercise for you, imagine everyone took responsibility for themselves and somehow managed to get city jobs with million quid bonus's?

Just think for a second the chaos the world would descend into if cleaners, doctors, nurses, teachers, firefighters, builders, shop assistants, care workers, all decided to "get motivated" to "assume responsibility", "quit whinging" and went out there and became city brokers?

Now imagine it the other way round? I think I know what world I'd rather live in.

Muppet.

Ahh provocation and personal attacks. The last resort of someone that knows they have lost an argument yet refuse to accept it.
I'll add circular arguments to that aswell!
That point you have made before and it was answered.
http://forums.hexus.net/showpost.php...8&postcount=25
after that post funnily enough you went off on an attack. I see a pattern here. You start to lose the argument and start calling people names.

[JPreston]

First off, JPreston, assumptions, well they in this case will discredit your argument emensly.

.....

Discredit; not really. Quid pro quo on assumptions though, so I went to my failing local comp (bottom 5% in the national league tables, then and now, WTF is it still open for?) and never even heard of 'the 11+' until I went to uni (where I naturally supported myself) cos what's the point sitting it? None of us would go to a grammar school anyway (I still don't know what the difference is). In the meantime my lone parent worked as a hospital cleaner (of all things ) Anyway long story short, I now earn quite a lot of money as a contract accountant/consultant, now 'a lot' is relative, but I have no stress at all and certainly no money worries. I could very easily earn 'a shedload' (which is a bit more than 'a lot') in the square mile as of 2 Jan, a few of my friends have done so for years, but TBH I don't need more money and don't care for commuting. In this sense (only), people choose not to work for banks. But I'm certainly not jealous of anyone in the world, except maybe those who can support themselves without going to work at all but naturally this excludes everyone who earns £million bonuses. I'm very lucky, and happy.

So, given we don't have wildly different histories why do we disagree on this subject? Partly the principle that people like us would never receive a £50million bonus. In my case, and from what you say yours too, that is not a problem because we are content. But say someone was no less driven and talented than anyone else, is it right that doors should be closed to them on the basis of class? Of course not. But mainly the fact that it is not humanly justifiable that someone should receive £50million while the person who cleans under their desk has to worry about keeping a roof over their head.

And the point I was trying to make is that being an office cleaner is stressful not because of "OMG I can't get this coffee stain out of that carpet tile, WTF will I do?". It's stressful because of "I work undocumented for a contract agency who pay me £4 an hour to work 60 hours a week, how will I feed clothe house and bring up my children?". Maszlow's hierarchy of needs, you see. When your most basic needs cannot be met of course you are under more stress than someone worrying whether his bonus will be £30million or £50million this year.

[TheAnimus]

what are you babbling about. The only way supply and demand can work is if there is limited resources/places. Therefore you are actually admitting that is impossible for everyone to earn such ridiculous sums of money. Even if we were to assume that everyone had equal oppurtunity to earn such money (absurd in itself) that would only mean anybody can earn that money, which is distinctly different than everyone.

Anyone can win the lottery but everyone certainly can't.

For someone who works in the city your grasp of basic economics is awful.

I've been saying all along its a case of working hard. If everyone got £50m, it would become devalued (inflation). But it would still be £50m.

For it too be such a larger than average sum, it has to be a case of everyone has the opertunity to work better/harder than most.

Now, given that the vast majority of people lack the knowledge (same way i would never be a good english teacher, spelling age of a 10 year old, with bad hand writing) the drive, and the energy to do so. But there is still nothing stopping you learning, enless you have a learning disability of course

[revol68]

look badass if you have an actual argument to make as to why i'm wrong make it.

Explain to me what i'm wrong about? That tech forums have skewered demagraphics towards men with relatively high disposable incomes and third level educations?

That peoples social position and experiance effects their understanding of the world and how it works?

Stop focussing on one word, muppet, isn't even much of an insult, it's playful, akin to silly billy.

[badass]

look badass if you have an actual argument to make as to why i'm wrong make it.

Evidently you didn't learn how to read at your grammar school. Either that or you didn't learn how to click a link. I linked to the counter argument in the post you refer to.