sure, a valid question. usual criteriaOriginally Posted by TheAnimus
how long have they been studying this field?
how are they recognised internationally?
what have they published?
what recognition are they given by the 'opposition'?
if studying Islam, as a Christian, aside from the usual academic background, can they speak Arabic, what is their standing within the *Muslim* community, are they respected, what are their Christian academic credentials etc.
I'm stating the obvious, lol.
hey, of course I can be wrong. The wonderful thing is, we're all in the same boat, when it comes to something like those tablets. Yet, the more artefacts are uncovered, the more the Bible has been corroborated, NOT refuted.Fuddam,
You're obviously a pretty learned guy, but on this I think you're wrong, unless the three years I spent studying Biblical Archaeology at university were a waste of time that is.
MB
Eg. the existence of Sodom & Gomorrah - dismissed by so many scholars as myth, until the recent discovery while digging at Tell Mardikh of a trading document which mentions 5 cities: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboii, and Zoar. And it not only mentions them, but in the exact same order as listed in Genesis. There is so much more detail on just this find, but I digress.
Regarding the Gilgamesh epic, I will quote a friend of mine, Jay Smith:
"In the British Museum, the tablets of the flood, and the Epic of Creation, written in Cuneiform, are taken from amongst other records, the Gilgamesh epic, a well known document, though based on oral tradition. Many people believe it is these tablets that are the source for the Genesis account. This is easy to understand, as the *assumption* is that the Bible was written long after these traditions were passed down. What we need to understand is that the stories in these tablets do not parallel exactly what we have in the Biblical account. This stands to reason, since they are oral tradition, they are passed down from generation to generation, and therefore open to embellishment. What is interesting is that the core story parallels what we find in the Biblical text.
We have over 200 different cultures which recount a story of a flood, sometimes a local flood, while at other times a universal flood, proving the universality of this account. Yet, there is an important difference between these accounts and what we have in the Genesis report.
when you look at the oral accounts, they take you nowhere. There is no background, nor foundation to these stories at all. They are nothing more than folk tales or stories for children. Very simplistic. Yet when you look at the Genesis account, especially the story of creation found in chapters 1-3, we find a qualitative difference, which is foundational for the rest of the Bible. It is difficult to understand the core themes of the Bible unless you understand what happened in the Garden of Eden, after the 6 day creation. Therefore it is imperative to do a comparison between the tablets and the Biblical account.
The oral traditions are nebulous, are not foundational nor are significant, while the Biblical references to creation are enormously foundational for the entire Biblical story. They are not written for story telling, nor as fairy tales, nor by happenstance, nor for entertainment, but are written to give an historical and significant consecutive account of creation on which the entire scope of history is founded. Thus, when each prophet speaks about the sin of man, he is refering back to the fall, found in Genesis 3. Every prophet and every book is dependent on the Genesis account, rendering it far greater importance as well as accuracy. We do not find embellishment nor material of a fantastic nature in the Genesis account. *Every* part of the Genesis account is imbued with portent or some theological importance. "
(my emphases, by the way)
So, to create a sophisticated, complex account, from a simplistic, embellished source, doesn't ring true. The evidence suggests the opposite. Physically, the tablets in the museum are older than the masoretic text, but that is all.
Naaaah.
Can't really respond in that much depth I'm afraid...
I'll just give my view that the Old Testament is most probably a collection of oral tradition from surrounding cultures, ordered and packaged neatly.
Think of what Serenity is to Firefly… that's the bible to the folklore.
going on occam's razor a little, the legends of Gilgamesh (which coincedentally gave their name to a nice restraunt in Camden Lock way if ever your in those parts) with storys such as floods etc.
Guess what happens quite often, requires little imagination to create a story from, floods is a great example of this.
Finding thousands of accounts of great floods (i want to add emphasis to that plural) isn't unusal considering the evidence of many many floods in islands all around the world. Its very intresting to see that a small landslide can cause a massive tidal wave on the other side of a lake, there have been examples of this phenominon in the last century.
my point is its very possible all these accounts could of evolved seperately, the evidence of them been the same is quite tenious.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
And a bloke that knows ALL there is to know about ABITgoing on occam's razor a little, the legends of Gilgamesh (which coincedentally gave their name to a nice restraunt in Camden Lock way if ever your in those parts) with storys such as floods etc.
agreed, not talking about proof or evidence of the Biblical flood. Simply talking about the notion that Genesis is derived from Gilgamesh epic et al is highly implausible.
well, that's what Jay's point is all about. When examining any written material from history, to try to discern how plausible / objective it is, one applies 2 tests:
1) test for simplication
2) test for embellishment
With normal oral tradition, it tends to fall foul of both problems. We see it all the time, in the daily news. No leader gives reports on what a failure he is, how badly equipped he is for the role of leader, that he's a murderer / adulterer / liar etc. After all, Clinton never had sex with anyone other than his wife, right?
And Bush hasn't made a mess of things in the ME, right?
BUT the Bible does the opposite. All the prophets / leaders of the Jewish people are fallen people. They ARE murderers, adulterers, thieves, liars etc, who God has used for His ends. The only real praise goes to Him, not them.
and the Biblical text fits so neatly together, without contradiction (truly, any objection you offer can be politely met), with internal consistency, rhythm, sound theology etc. YET it is written by many people over thousands of years.
pretty strange, that. Enough to raise an eyebrow.
There was no editor who neatly packaged it in 300AD, and that *can* be proven.
how? prove it.
For you fuddam and those who want to have questions answered etc, do refer to the respected scholar Dr. Zakir Naik, this would be his website http://www.irf.net/irf/drzakirnaik/index.htm
Also search on youtube for his videos, he holds discussion and debating sessions pretty often with scholars of all religions and debates, with proof and reasoning and shows how Islam is the true religion, offcourse, you dont need to agree with him, but would do you good if you look at his shows, they are all in English, he knows the bible, the torah, the jain and other religious books by heart, I mean, he has them memorized verse by verse, he calls scholars of all religions for debates, sometimes he knows more than them about their religion, but he is not arrogant.
Anyways, do give him a look, those who are interested might like him.
Check out my Tech Blogs: Budget Gaming Rigs and The Droid ReviewHomer Simpson: "It takes two to lie Marge. One to lie, and one to listen"
360bhp (21-07-2008)
London School of Islamics is an educational Trust. Its aim is to make British public, institutions and media aware of the needs and demands of the Muslim community in the field of education and possible solutions.
Slough Islamic school Trust Slough had a seminar on Muslim
education and schools in Thames Valley Atheltic Centre. The seminar was addressed by the education spokesman of MCB. I could not attend the seminar but I believe lot of Muslims from Slough and surrounding areas must have attended. Very soon, the Muslims of Slough will have a state funded Muslim
school but there is a need for more schools. A day will come when all Muslim children will attend state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role model.
Muslim schools are not only faith schools but they are more or less bilingual schools.
Bilingual Muslim children need to learn standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. They need to be well versed in Arabic to recite and understand the Holy Quran. They need to be well versed in Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of
their literature and poetry.
Bilingualism is an asset but the British schooling regards it as a
problem. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. Pakistan is only seven hours from London and majority of British Muslims are from Pakistan.
More than third of British Muslim have no qualifications. British school system has been failing large number of Muslims children for the last 60 years. Muslim scholars see the pursuit of knowledge as a duty, with the Quran containing several verses to the rewards of learning. 33% of British Muslims of working age have no qualifications and Muslims are also the least likely to have degrees or equivalent qualifications. Most of estimated 500,000 Muslim school-aged pupils in England and Wales are educated in the state system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. Majority of them are underachievers because they are at a wrong place at a wrong time.
Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers during their developmental periods. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. As far as higher education is concerned, Muslim students can be educated with others. Let Muslim
community educate its own children so that they can develop their own Islamic, cultural and linguistic identities and become usefull members of the British society rather than becoming a buden.
We are living in an English speaking country and English is an
international language, therefore, we want our children to learn and be well versed in standard English and at the same time well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages. Is there anything wrong with this approach?
It is not only the Muslim community who would like to send their children to Muslim school. Sikh and Hindu communities have started setting up their schools. Last week. British Black Community has planned the first all black school with Black teachers in Birmingham.
Scotland's first state funded Muslim school could get the go-ahead within months after First Munister Alex Salmond declared he was sympathetic towards the needs and demands of the Muslim community.
I dont agree with that one bit. If they said first all cameroon school, or all nigerian school.. then thats one thing, but all black?? Can you imagine a school of just white people in birmingham?! I'm not white, but racism works both ways.
Care to back that up? Can't really imagine that going on without uproar. It makes about as much sense as those emails going round saying that the Holocaust is being banned from the teaching curriculum because it offends Muslims, which is patently not true of course.
Don't you people learn? He's not going to be be...at least not for another 100+ posts anyway....
sig removed by Zak33
Whether he's going to be back or not, I disagree with that last post by IftikharA almost entirely. Isolation will only serve to heighten peoples unease about Muslim culture and widen rifts between different cultures in communities.
I have met quite a few Muslims, since my parents are friends with a lot of them (for the record, I'm white, Christian background though not particularly religious) and they are all good people. It is this contact, more than anything else, that helps me to ignore any crap that the Daily Mail etc spout. If Muslim only (same with other religions/groups) schools pop up then there are just going to be harder barriers to cross later in life. It's bad enough, though understandable, when minorities end up forming their own little friendship groups in schools.
iranu (22-07-2008)
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