Muslim Ghettoisation

[staffsMike]

In the Quran as far as I am aware there is nothing on circumcision.

From the sounds of it i'm sure there isn't but this is the problem of the words being twisted to their own means. Finding things to suit their own beliefs and cultures.

All religions (and cultures) end up doing it in some form of another, it's not just that one.

You get people like Jehovahs Witnesses re-writing the bible to tell their message. Are they a cult? Or was their religion founded in much the same way the major religions were...?

[Hunain]

I would not even call it interpretation of The Quran, an interpretation needs to take some logical idea from the base material, if The Quran says, protect women and you take it to mean that you can do what ever to her private parts to "protect" her, that is hardly an interpretation or even a twisted one at that.

[shadowmaster]

From the sounds of it i'm sure there isn't but this is the problem of the words being twisted to their own means. Finding things to suit their own beliefs and cultures.

True, however the idea that female circumcision should be carried is from the Hadeeth (sayings of the prophet), but its a very weak one in terms of its authenticity so most scholars disregard it. You do get some that cling onto it and use it as justification for it.

[360bhp]

Female circumcision is NOT ALLOWED in Islam. It is an african practice, by tribes/groups of people that happen to be muslims.

The reason woman are told to cover up, is to protect them as men are weak. Rape/abortion/underage pregnancy rates show you how it helps.

All I can say is.. Put your copy of the sun newspaper down. Don't believe averything you see in the media. Research for yourself what there is right from the first sources. Thats the original Bible, original Torah and The Qur'an.

To be honest, there is too much about religion to discuss on a computer hardware forum. This is gonna be my last message, as there are islamic forums to discuss on (ummah.com/forum) is one that you can have a good debate on. Post your question and await your reply. I'd be willing to spare my time and educate you on MSN or something if you like. Or you could even go down the local mosque and find someone to talk to.

[staffsMike]

My point was never is it allowed. No book of God I can imagine or one which is so widely followed could allow such a thing. It is also my understanding that it is fairly isolated these days if not banned in most muslim countries.

The point is, when you consider such practices, and watch a show on channel 4 that shows it happening, and you read the sun .. the list goes on. Those unwilling to research it further (which will be most, but not myself as I've always been keen on religion as well as philosophy) pick up on only these bad things. Thus they paint the picture in their mind of what Muslims, or whoever we are pointing the finger at that week, are like. When in reality the bulk of people are probably more like Hunain than anything else.

[j1979]

The point is, when you consider such practices, and watch a show on channel 4 that shows it happening, .

The Show on channel 4 did show Female circumcision, but if you watched all of it, they very clearly pointed out that this is African culture and nothing to do with the spead of Islam.

my main gripe with the whole situation, is that im agnostic, but if i have a joke about god with anyone of my Christian friends most will take it on the chin, and have a bit of banta back. But if i even go down that road with ANY of my musilm friends they are higly offended and take it all so seriously.

the reason is that all, (and correct me if wrong) majority Christian countries are secular and a fair proportion of majorty muslim countries are close to being non-secular.

thats why if you insult Jesus and enough people hear you, you might get a death treat or 2.

but if you insult mohammad and enough people hear you, you will be killed.

thats what pisses me off....

[fuddam]

An example how accurate the christian bible is:

How come so many parts where stolen from the Sumerian legends - example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

no, not true. is funny you should mention that, since was looking at exactly that subject yesterday, at the actual tablets in the British Museum - hehehehe.

Is actually the other way around. Can give you proper explanation if you want, but is late.

[staffsMike]

The Show on channel 4 did show Female circumcision, but if you watched all of it, they very clearly pointed out that this is African culture and nothing to do with the spead of Islam.

Missed my point. I'm not talking from my own views, I'm talking about a large percentage of the population who will have watched that, added 2 + 2 and got 38. As the OP has pointed out about the persecution and misunderstanding of Muslims, it doesn't come from solid understanding.. probably comes from south park.

[fuddam]

Of course the accusation can be levelled. That is a cold, hard and easily provable fact. For a start, I levelled that accusation, so you have proof positive right there. And I'm incredibly far from the first to do so, rather doubt I'll be the last, and am also very far from the best qualified.

Whether those accusations are justified or not, or correct or not, is another matter.

we're talking at cross purposes. My point is that such an accusation (of Biblical mistranslation) is not justified. And funny that it should be so, but I happen to know, personally, some of the very best qualified peeps on the planet on the subject.

[fuddam]

Well, it's a valid point, isn't it? <SNIP>But how accurate are the drawings of the dinosaur or the floor plan of the castle, much less similarly deduced cultural contexts or religious similes?

Excellent. This is why there is such differing intepretation of the Bible. It applies to ALL times (it is divine) but the ***context*** in which it is read will allow for some flexibility (but not total).

MEANING has always been subject to debate, in every field. Why should it be different for the Bible?

[staffsMike]

As for her marrying a person of some other religion, that is not allowed in Islam, now the enforcing bit, that depends on how liberal I am TBH, i dont think my parents would like that much, but as for ME, my duty is to ensure she knows the principle, if she decides to go against it, thats her will and according to the teachings of Islam, I would not be held accountable for her personal deeds, my duty is to make sure she knows what is required for her to do, if she chooses to go against the religion, its her choice.

But the problem does not end there, once she does that, I will receive calls perhaps taunts too from neighbours, family members possibly or simply people talking crap behind my back, " Do u know what his sister did?", I might even have problems marrying myself, when people get to know, so that would be a social reaction, how I react to it, will be my choice, nothing to do with the religion

Sorry Hunain I missed that reply lol.

That sort of confirms my thoughts. I know all about the back stabbing and family honour stuff that goes on given that sort of situation.

My gf happens to be, not muslim, but not your typical white british (I know i'm mixing race and religion etc.. but you get my point) either and from my perspective what their family go through for "honour" is bloomin rediculous. It's funny really, from the outside it always looks so hunky doory but it's such a different story once you are actually involved.

I've gone from enjoying the idea of her culture to full on resentment of it, for which I have very good reasons.

[fuddam]

I being a muslim, am thoroughly annoyed by people such as your self, " I know the Quran more, the religion Islam is not at all what it is widely thought as being, I know it all!"...If you try and google about the bible you will find pages where people have quoted versus and commented on the authenticity of the holy book itself, does that give me the right to say, "Oh i can quote etc etc verse and say that your religion is not what u think it is, you dont even know it". I don't think so, but you on the other hand come here and be all wise #$$ and say "nope" bla bla yada yada, sorry if im being harsh but this is not acceptable, as a fellow member has pointed out, yes you MIGHT be able to quote surahs, out of context i.e., I dont mean to brag or anything, but yes I have studied my religion and i know enough to discern right from wrong, Im not merely a muslim because i was born one, I am because i find it to be true, I find it to be the religion i want to practice.

That said, you have ticked me off pretty bad, dont be that arrogant and over confident about any religion next time, its all a matter of beliefs and interpretations, you could have said, TO ME it is not peaceful, you can not just come here and say, NOPE, THAT IS NOT TRUE, I hope you get what im trying to say, it is for your own good.

Well, while you may get annoyed by my assertions, the fact of the matter is that I know many of the foremost scholars in the world on the subject of Islam, many are muslims themselves, others who were muslim but are no longer. I am not some jonny-come-lately. I don't pretend to know it all, but I certainly know the right people if there are questions to be raised, on ANY issue in the Qu'ran.

We cannot reduce the qu'ran to subjectivism, to pure 'interpretation'. There has to be room for debate, for discussion, for sometimes to say "that is not true, he has got it wrong".

so, if one admits that, then there must be some objective understanding of the Qu'ran. And there is a *possibility* that I know more about your religion than you do. You have to admit that.

I don't doubt your sincerity. I am glad you are haven't simply adopted it from birth but have studied it for yourself.

[schmunk]

Well, while you may get annoyed by my assertions, the fact of the matter is that I know many of the foremost scholars in the world on the subject of Islam, many are muslims themselves, others who were muslim but are no longer. I am not some jonny-come-lately. I don't pretend to know it all, but I certainly know the right people if there are questions to be raised, on ANY issue in the Qu'ran.

Out of interest, what is the reason for this? How have you come to meet such people?

[TheAnimus]

we're talking at cross purposes. My point is that such an accusation (of Biblical mistranslation) is not justified. And funny that it should be so, but I happen to know, personally, some of the very best qualified peeps on the planet on the subject.

Out of curiosity how does one see how qualified a scolar in such a matter is? I fear too much its a case of these people agree with my view points, let find reasons to justify their qualifications.

[fuddam]

Out of interest, what is the reason for this? How have you come to meet such people?

Amongst other things, I make TV documentaries, and a lot of it is for an Iranian Christian TV channel. FWIW, made by Iranians, run by Iranians, for Iranians - not some American broadcaster. So, a lot of ex-Muslims, including ex-mullahs, people from the highest levels of Muslim authority.

Through that, have met some of the best scholars on Islam and Christianity (both sides), who I've either had to interview, make programs with or met through various conferences etc

their clarity of thought and debate - wonderful to witness.

[M0nkeyb0Y]

no, not true. is funny you should mention that, since was looking at exactly that subject yesterday, at the actual tablets in the British Museum - hehehehe.

Is actually the other way around. Can give you proper explanation if you want, but is late.

Fuddam,

You're obviously a pretty learned guy, but on this I think you're wrong, unless the three years I spent studying Biblical Archaeology at university were a waste of time that is.

MB