Christians - A Penny For Your Thoughts.

[Alex]

No one worships the biblical, anti-God Satan, or at least, those that do are in the nminority of Satanists. Satanists generally adhere to the idea of Satan as some kind of pagan god, like an Earth God or something, rather than worshipping what they see as the source of evil etc.

This is as opposed to the likes of Marilyn Manson and the Church of Satan, who to me, seem to just have an atheistic viewpoint clothed as 'Satanism' so as to look more 'rock', because it's evil and stuff. Just basically seems to add up to 'be selfish, enjoy yourself' as a life philosophy.

Read about the Church of Satan here

[Akira]

woo my quote for people taking my advice is full for this month

If have thought that beliving in some form of 'anti-god' woudl be quite important to beliving in god ? Logic would say that how can you see light if you've never seen dark ?

The Mephistophelean image of the Devil (ie. pointy ears, goattee beard, loads of evil pacts etc.) was undoutedly invented in the middle ages in order to scare folks into behaving themselves by unscrupulous European tyrants.

I'm sure most Christians wouldn't expect to be poked in the ass by a diabolic pitch fork wielded by Mr Louis Cypher, since many believe (from what I understand) that not going to heaven will simply cast you into the void where your spirit will simply die.

I have to agree with some posters concern for extreme right wing Evangelicals though, especially in the states... this whole End of Times majigger has gotten me pretty freaked out!

[Kezzer]

The devil was one of the highest angels in heaven, thus of course it's logical to to recognise the devil. I don't know any Christians who don't believe in the devil. Seeing as though the devil represents everything that is bad then it would be wrong to worship him, which is another reason why Christians don't talk about the devil much, because the recognition turns into a full blown conversation.

You can't however, put every 'bad' thing down to him. Sometimes the bad things that happen to you are beneficial which is why I personally don't recognise the devil as bringer of all bad things (even though the devil does) when it comes to things going wrong in my life.

[Akira]

The Fallen Angel you're talking about (Lucifer meaning Light Bringer - work that one out), completely pre-dates Christianity and wasn't half as nasty as medieval interpretations of Old Nick. Try and find anything other than a couple of mentions in an OT as well as any mention of Hell... and I don't mean purgatory either - they're not the same.

I actually know a lot of pentacostal christians who believe in sybolic evil and hell but it's not the kind of place John Constantine visits in his eponymous movie. Evil is simply the absence of the grace of god.

One thing I don't understand about Christians is their tendency to pick and chose what they wish to believe in from both the Old and New testements... how can you reconcile the son of god's "turn the other cheek" with Jehovah's "an eye for an eye"...

Also, to be a Christian and adhere, to me, means that you have to be homophobic by default. I've listened to a leading minister from the Revelations digital channel on the radio who stated that if he found that he were gay he'd instantly kill himself...

It's all a bit hazy with many, many grey areas if you ask me.

[JPreston]

I've listened to a leading minister from the Revelations digital channel on the radio who stated that if he found that he were gay he'd instantly kill himself...

...Ted Haggard?

[Akira]

Could be, he's English tho' as is the channel! He then back-tracked and said that he'd counsel any christians whom he suspected was Gay etc...

[fuddam]

I'm sure most Christians wouldn't expect to be poked in the ass by a diabolic pitch fork wielded by Mr Louis Cypher, since many believe (from what I understand) that not going to heaven will simply cast you into the void where your spirit will simply die.

nope, we Christians do NOT believe your soul will die. It is eternal. Therefore hell is eternity without God, which includes eternity without joy / peace / contentment etc.

I have to agree with some posters concern for extreme right wing Evangelicals though, especially in the states... this whole End of Times majigger has gotten me pretty freaked out!

All Christians believe in the end times; the point is simply how likely it is to be soon or not. There is plenty of accurate fulfillment of prophecy in the past 100 years, so make of that what you will....

[kalniel]

One thing I don't understand about Christians is their tendency to pick and chose what they wish to believe in from both the Old and New testements... how can you reconcile the son of god's "turn the other cheek" with Jehovah's "an eye for an eye"...

Also, to be a Christian and adhere, to me, means that you have to be homophobic by default. I've listened to a leading minister from the Revelations digital channel on the radio who stated that if he found that he were gay he'd instantly kill himself...

It's all a bit hazy with many, many grey areas if you ask me.

I think all these points were quite comprehensively addressed earlier in the thread.

[fuddam]

The Fallen Angel you're talking about (Lucifer meaning Light Bringer - work that one out),

he was the highest of all angels, therefore the name is entirely appropriate

completely pre-dates Christianity and wasn't half as nasty as medieval interpretations of Old Nick. Try and find anything other than a couple of mentions in an OT as well as any mention of Hell... and I don't mean purgatory either - they're not the same.

since Christianity dates back to Genesis, it does not predate anything. Judaism and Christianity separate at the birth of Christ, but no mistake, they share a common BC background.

I actually know a lot of pentacostal christians who believe in sybolic evil and hell but it's not the kind of place John Constantine visits in his eponymous movie. Evil is simply the absence of the grace of god.

which means it is the place of suffering / pain / torment / agony etc. It is the place of all that is not God. It is not simply an empty void.

One thing I don't understand about Christians is their tendency to pick and chose what they wish to believe in from both the Old and New testements... how can you reconcile the son of god's "turn the other cheek" with Jehovah's "an eye for an eye"...

there is no freedom to pick and choose. That is a defining new age trait, though of course not limited to new age philosophies.

One has to read more about such notions as eye for an eye to get the whole picture, and when one does, there is no contradiction. Historical context is very important.

At that time in the middle east (and still today) there was a tendency to exact hideous vengeance for wrongs done to one. Eg, you kill my mother, I therefore kill your whole family.
The eye for an eye was a LIMIT on the extent to which one could expect justice, ie one could not be justified in doing MORE than had been done to oneself.

So, Jesus comes along and says 'turn the other cheek'. That does not contradict an eye for an eye. It is the best possible choice when one has been wronged.

Also, to be a Christian and adhere, to me, means that you have to be homophobic by default. I've listened to a leading minister from the Revelations digital channel on the radio who stated that if he found that he were gay he'd instantly kill himself...

If that is accurate, he is completely confused / mistaken in his Christian understanding.
To be a Biblical Christian, one has to differentiate between the sinner and the sin. Therefore one can hate the sin, but NEVER hate the sinner. EVER.
I hate murder. I cannot call myself a Christian and hate the murderer.
I can judge the sin, but never judge the sinner. Ever.

NB: we also have to remember people are weak / flawed, so use Christ as the perfect example, not your Christian neighbour....

So far as the picture drawn throughout the Bible, the ideal relationship God paints is between man and woman. The complement each other, they each have their strengths and weaknesses etc, they are the basis for family etc etc.

I'm sure we can open a whole new tangent on this topic, but am not trying to do so. All I wish to clarify is that any church that rejects a person on the basis of that person being a homosexual has made a mistake.

ANYONE who comes to a church should be welcome, as long as their intent is not to damage / destroy / disrupt the church. (yes, some people do come with that intent, but that has nothing to do with the topic of homosexuality per se).

It's all a bit hazy with many, many grey areas if you ask me.

I would not say there are grey areas. I would say our understanding can be grey, but through discussion and debate and God's grace, we can find real answers.

[fuddam]

I'd like to know what our Christian members think about old nick.

he is real. absolutely.

Do you fear him?

no, but I do respect him - ie he is my enemy, it is dangerous to underestimate one's enemy.

The Devil is real, he resides in Hell, he is the source of all evil, etc?

yes

What about Satanists? Deluded, or is worshiping Satan as valid as worshiping God, if you accept, as a Christian, that both exist?

People can worship satan, explicitly. But they are deluded insofar as they believe he is the right path. A being that wishes the complete destruction / obliteration of every human on the planet, without exception, is not someone to be worshipped. It is not for nothing he is known as the grand deceiver.
As you prob heard before, one of the biggest deceptions he has pulled off is to get people to believe he does not exist.

[Akira]

nope, we Christians do NOT believe your soul will die. It is eternal. Therefore hell is eternity without God, which includes eternity without joy / peace / contentment etc.



All Christians believe in the end times; the point is simply how likely it is to be soon or not. There is plenty of accurate fulfillment of prophecy in the past 100 years, so make of that what you will....

So you'd agree with the so called End of Timers Evangelical movement in the states' overt support of Israel in the hopes of bringing about the apocolypse?

[Akira]

he is real. absolutely.

no, but I do respect him - ie he is my enemy, it is dangerous to underestimate one's enemy.

yes


People can worship satan, explicitly. But they are deluded insofar as they believe he is the right path. A being that wishes the complete destruction / obliteration of every human on the planet, without exception, is not someone to be worshipped. It is not for nothing he is known as the grand deceiver.
As you prob heard before, one of the biggest deceptions he has pulled off is to get people to believe he does not exist.

Can you point me to the scripture that details Satan's wish to obliterate all humans on the planet? Also, where he is referred to as The Grand Deceiver? For my own edification of course.

[Akira]

I think all these points were quite comprehensively addressed earlier in the thread.

My apologies Kalniel, I'm not trolling tho, simply recapping...

[Stewart]

Also, to be a Christian and adhere, to me, means that you have to be homophobic by default.

Yup. Think I already mentioned this.

There are passages in the Bible that are very clear on this.

You can be a Christian and homophobic, or you can be a Christian who doesn't follow the teachings of the Bible, and so is no more a Christian than I am.

Can't have it both ways.

Seeing as vast blocks of the Bible are, apparently, not to be taken literally, all you are left with is the moral guidance on how to live your life. If you can't even balance that with modern life, what have you got left?

Praying to a God whose deeds you don't completely believe in, and whose teachings you barely follow.

At least you could respect the position of a Christian who stands by the core teachings of their religion, instead of shrinking away from them as soon as they realise that they are completely at odds with what is seen as acceptable in modern society.

But no. 'Some parts are allegorical', 'Everyone has their own interpretations'.

When you are reduced to an apologist for your own core belief system, and have to spin and water down the bits you are prepared to keep to, what’s the point?

Better an atheist than a hypocrite.

[Akira]

Regardless of one's own theological stance, interpretation of scripture etc. I still find it difficult to believe the universe happened by chance....

Mind you, I used to be a big fan of Eric Von Daniken (Chariots of the Gods) until the whole falsification of evidence thingy so how easy am I to kid

[fuddam]

So you'd agree with the so called End of Timers Evangelical movement in the states' overt support of Israel in the hopes of bringing about the apocolypse?

nope. I personally wish to delay the apocalypse as long as possible, in order that more people might come to salvation.