Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[Agent]

- You should have a choice where you send your children - the petition aims to remove choice. "Abolish faith schools". All faith schools? (Even private faith schools? - the petition doesn't specify - but lets assume they're just talking about goverment funded schools...)

Now this is something which narks me
I don't believe that parents should be able to inflict their views of religion on anyone, especially their kids to such a degree (after all, they are most susceptible at that age)
I would much rather kids go to a 'neutral' learning ground, be taught the different religions, and allowed to make their own mind up. With a parent deciding to send their kid to a 'faith school', they are already moulding them into their own beliefs.

[staffsMike]

Yes you're right, I'm being narrow minded. So let's give equal class time to Thor, Mithras, Cthulhu, David Koresh, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Lord Ram and his Army of Monkeys*, Baal, Anubis, L. ron Hubbard, and every single one of the 1000s of unfalsifiable (but generally mutually contradictory) gods and messiahs that people have worshipped at some point. Wouldn't want to be narrow minded, would we? I mean, we don't really know for sure.


*actually, perhaps 1 billion people today believe in the Army of Monkeys. Maybe that theory should get extra weight?

Everyone has faith..just depends what it's in.

Could you without the aid of a certain books prove to me that the big bang is what happened?

You could do the maths yourself, yes? Doubt that very much.

So you take the word of another.. you agree with something you couldn't hope to prove yourself?

I'm not a religious man..but that doesn't mean you can't have faith and believe in more than you can see.

[joshwa]

I think they are talking about state schools, the state has little control over the independent schools. Assuming that is true then I don't see how it removes choice, if you really want to indoctrinate your kids, you pay for it. Why should I?

The point is, though, that everyone pays taxes, a percent of those taxes, pays for the school. The government should provide a suitable school from the money it gets in taxes. There are 25,000 schools in England, of those there are 7000 "Christian" schools (CofE / Catholic - source wikipedia), if England is 72% "Christian", then there should be MORE faith schools, not less

All the faith schools follow the national curriculum anyway, and they don't particularly dedicate any more time to religious lessons than a secular school anyway (Wiki), so the petition is somewhat irrellevant / unneccessary...

Perhaps the canadian system has the right idea - if tax payers want their tax money to go towards the religious schools, then they tick a box saying so.

Personally I want to send my kid(s) to a state school, where they are taught RE, Science, etc all the usuals - but as to where it's a CofE or a secular - will it actually make any difference to how my kid would be educated? I doubt it to be honest...

[G4Z]

Not that argument again. Sorry but not everybody has faith, I do not have faith. If I look at some evidence provided by science it is not the same as just taking somebodies word for it. Ever heard of peer review?

[G4Z]

Joshua, I like how you ignored my point about fringe religions.

Do I take it from that post you are happy for your money to be spent on a FSM school or a school of scientology?

[usxhe190]

I am agree with staffsmike

everyone has faith...people just don't realise it.

i am not a religious guy myself but that doesn't mean i won't explore the various faiths...

some depend on a book for the truth

some depend on a journal for the truth

back to the topic, i dont mind there being a religious school whatever faith it is...let there be a choice for the people

[G4Z]

How arrogant!

I don't realise it! Like I have never given it any thought at all! Look just because you need to seek comfort in the misguided belief that there is 'something more' does not mean we are all similarly affected.

[JPreston]

Everyone has faith..just depends what it's in.

Could you without the aid of a certain books prove to me that the big bang is what happened?

No, and I couldn't prove to you with the aid of books either. I don't know that 'the big bang is what happened'. I think that we as a species do not know yet.

What I can tell you, is that any collection of bronze age pastoral nomadic tribespeople that you care to name didn't know either. So far as I can see, they are the only people of whom it is claimed that they have all the answers.

You could do the maths yourself, yes? Doubt that very much.

So you take the word of another.. you agree with something you couldn't hope to prove yourself?

I'm pretty good at maths, thanks for asking.

I don't think you appreciate the difference between the accumulated knowledge built up through the countless patient discoveries of mankind through the ages, observed documented and evidenced throughout on the one hand....and the ridiculous, mistranslated, rambling, unfalsifiable and contradictory drivel spewed out by 'the faithful' on the other hand.

Here's an example:

It's believed by millions that a loving wizard in the sky decided to kill everyone on the Earth so he magicked up a load of water and drowned them. But first, he told Noah what he was going to do so Noah collected every single species on the planet, walking to two continents that noone had even heard of yet to pick up kangaroos and raccoons, painstakingly cataloguing 500,000 species of microbial nematode, and housing everything on a boat that he had specially built.

Then the wizard (in his infinite mercy) exterminated all other life on the planet, the waters eventually drained away (where to? up his bum?), everything got off the boat and lived happily ever after. Noah lived in a cave and survived to be 900 years old, where his daughters (foul spawn of Eve!) got him drunk and tricked him into having sex with them (I'm not sure exactly who he thought they were, seeing as how they were the only people on Earth) thus repopulating the human race. Amen.

Now, I can't prove that that didn't happen. Does that mean I should entertain the possibility that it did?

[staffsMike]

I don't entertain these idea's anymore than you do.. but i have tolerance for the people that do.

We live in a sick and twisted world and people need their religions to guide them..to keep them going. Who are you to mock them? Why shouldn't you learn about what they believe in and why? It interests quite a few people, provides job's for people, so why deny children the CHOICE, becuase thats what we are really talking about.

Religions encourage some of the most noble acts of kindness throughout the world not just wars.

[Agent]

I
everyone has faith...people just don't realise it.

I 100%, absolutely don't have any 'faith' (religious context).

[G4Z]

indeed, why deny them choice by forcing it on them when they are too young to make an objective decision?

I can tolerate people believing what they want, I just don't see why I should pay for it, you are not convincing me.

[staffsMike]

faith has no particular religious context. But those who do have faith in religion should be both accepted and tolerated which requires a certain degree of education.

[staffsMike]

How can they make an objective decision if they never take a single class on it? haha

Perhaps a happy medium needs to be found.

[Agent]

faith has no particular religious context..

huh?

[Lucio]

Interestingly, my fiancee actually went to a Catholic school and she certainly isn't Catholic, she's typical UK CoE, that is pays lip service to the general ideas but doesn't actually attend church.

Now, in her own words her RE classes (which admitedly were mandatory till 14), actually included tuition in multiple different religions and they were cast in a fair light. She learnt about Ramadan, Divali (sic!) and various different beliefs such as Taoism and Budisium. Her science classes never included things like creationism because quite frankly, they were covered in RE classes where they belonged!

*most* faith schools simply aren't about forcing their own brand of religion on people, they're there to provide an environment whereby children can learn to intigrate their faith into their day to day lives. If they don't have faith, then that choice is respected and also, I believe it's a matter of fact that to be a government funded faith school you have to admit a minority (approx 20% IIRC) of students from outside your ideal catchment. Whilst you can argue that faith schools will undoubtedly "force" children into following that faith by virture of the higher level of integration, that presuposes that all children are uncapable of making up their own minds and will blindly accept these facts.


The petition itself seems silly, it's based around the idea that because some people don't like faiths, no one should have that choice. If we worked on that basis, then the government could do nothing but give out tax rebates (about the only thing we could all agree on as a good thing!!). As someone who is an agnostic (ish! it's complex), I do agree that Creationism has no place in a science class, but it certainly has a place in school, in RE classes where we can learn about who believes what and try to figure out why. If a particular faith resonates with you, then you should follow it.

[G4Z]

That education is provided as part of the syllabus in state schools in RE (or RS, whatever they call it now). Why is it that not enough...?