Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[joshwa]

Basically - what I'm trying to say (in this post: http://forums.hexus.net/showpost.php...3&postcount=66) is:- part of my taxes pays for a school - if I have to pay for a private school - because the government don't provide a suitable school - then I should get a refund on the taxes paid towards the state school if I'm not using it.

Not that it's very likely. I'd be happy with a state school.

Regarding education and religion not being a part of it. I disagree, (obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion ) and believe that education on all religions should be part of a childs upbringing, enabling them to be tolerant and understanding to all other religions and people. I do agree that creationism (and likewise evolultion) should not be taught as fact, but it should be taught.

[G4Z]

Well I pay for private healthcare should I pay NI?

I also agree that it should be taught in school as it already is. i.e not as a fact (as ajbrun pointed out)

[staffsMike]

Depends.. do you want an ambulence to rescue you from certain death or wait for your private doctor to turn up?

[ajbrun]

That's harsh. I am sure that most parents would like their children to share the same values as themselves, whilst wishing all the best for their kids. They may believe that some of the core values taught by certain religions are a good thing, and may wish for their kid to pick those up too. In doing so, they will inevitably 'rob' the children of certain choices. In that sense, it is no different from a science oriented person trying to teach their kid maths that are several years ahead of what is taught in school (as long as it is humanly done), or parents with preference for classical music putting their child through classical music listening and studies (which, in retrorespect, may be useless 30 years down the line when the child becomes a brain surgeon instead).

The difference is that maths is a bit like science in that it's supported by fact. One plus one does in fact equal two. However, day plus night plus earth plus humans does not necessarily equal god.

[staffsMike]

The difference is that maths is a bit like science in that it's supported by fact. One plus one does in fact equal two. However, day plus night plus earth plus humans does not necessarily equal god.

Do you not believe that everything in a science classroom should be supported by fact? I'd be interested in hearing how you would expect science teachers to go about teaching creationism as a science (ie with evidence based on facts).

Your quote from joshwa gives you your answer.. he doesn't expect it to be taught as fact.

[G4Z]

Depends.. do you want an ambulence to rescue you from certain death or wait for your private doctor to turn up?

Quite right, I also want employable and intelligent young people in this country. I don't have any kids, I pay for this education anyway, do you hear me complaining?.

[ajbrun]

Your quote from joshwa gives you your answer.. he doesn't expect it to be taught as fact.

I know - just before you posted that, I removed that part of my post after realising I'd read it wrong.

I'm only assuming Josh is keeping creationism to the RE room and evolution to the science room though.

[joshwa]

Perhaps the petition should be more specific...

Stop government funding of specific faith schools, such as... the Vardy ones... or
All government funded schools should teach X Y Z regarding religious education... and
Stop school selection systems...

As it seems like part of the problem is that the national curriculum dictates what's taught in science lessons, but gives schools free reign regarding RE.

It seems like 3 or 4 "bad" schools are giving ALL faith schools a bad name... whereas pretty much all of them, apart from the minority, teach all religions...

[staffsMike]

Quite right, I also want employable and inteligent young people in this country. I don't have any kids, I pay for this education anyway, do you hear me complaining?.

inteligent or intelligent?

[joshwa]

I'm only assuming Josh is keeping creationism to the RE room and evolution to the science room though.

Yeah, I'm happy with that.

I don't like the petition, I don't agree with it (I wouldn't sign it), I think it's got a number of issues, that should ideally be seperated, and made more specific (is it talking about the minority of faith schools such as the Vardy ones, or ALL faith schools such as the 7000 CofE schools?), and the title is misleading.

I'm undecided regarding government funding of faith schools. Government funding should be possible if they follow the national curriculum and don't teach creationism as fact. But there should also be the opportunity to send your children to a faith (christian, muslim, jewish) school if you want...

and I've calmed down now that I've looked into it more and I'm too tired to think anymore

[G4Z]

Perhaps the petition should be more specific...

Stop government funding of specific faith schools, such as... the Vardy ones... or
All government funded schools should teach X Y Z regarding religious education... and
Stop school selection systems...

As it seems like part of the problem is that the national curriculum dictates what's taught in science lessons, but gives schools free reign regarding RE.

It seems like 3 or 4 "bad" schools are giving ALL faith schools a bad name... whereas pretty much all of them, apart from the minority, teach all religions...

Seems to me what you are proposing is your standard state school which is exactly what I am arguing for. We do not need faith schools, if the majority are as you say so tolerant and (for lack of a better word) 'standard' anyway, then what is your problem with making them become like every other state school. If your argument is that 'well they teach the same stuff the same way' then I do not understand why you think we need them at all.

[ajbrun]

But there should also be the opportunity to send your children to a faith (christian, muslim, jewish) school if you want...

I think this is the only issue we disagree on now. How can teaching religion to someone to a child so young be right? Have you ever wondered why there are so many christians in the west? Why is it that your parents are (probably) christian? How is it a choice when the religion a person takes on is simply what their parents believe? Surely it's much fairer to teach all religions to a child in equal measures until they're able to make up their own mind?

I always thought indoctrination was a bad thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctr...indoctrination

[ajbrun]

I'll just further the comparison I made earlier:
A child could be brought up to believe that it's a good thing to bomb the west, and that those who do so are going to be rewarded in a later life. I'm sure you would call that indoctrination because that child is being taught something that is forced upon them. Please explain how this is any different to religion.

EDIT - sorry, I seem to have quoted my last post instead of editing it...

[TooNice]

The difference is that maths is a bit like science in that it's supported by fact. One plus one does in fact equal two. However, day plus night plus earth plus humans does not necessarily equal god.

But does maths provide any moral values? For the majority of the parents, they probably want their children to succeed in life. This is definitely helped by teaching facts. However, more than that, they probably want their children to grow up to be an honest individual.

And that's a tricky one. Is religion the answer? Well, some may believe all that religions are used control people, and point out all the wars that has been fought over religion. Or they may point out serious dubious moral practices suggested in the holy book of certain religion. But in general, I do doubt that religions were created with malice in mind, and while some have managed to use it for evil deeds, they do generally contain more positive values than negative/obsolete ones and therefore a workable 'framework' when it comes to teaching positive values. Whether they are necessary to teach those positive values, no, you can just list them up as fact. Whether a child will be more, less, or equally affected by the teaching of a religion when it comes to becoming a good person... well, I'll happily read any peer reviewed journal on this matter if there is one. Though I am quite curious what sort of methodology could be used to study this, and like many studies in social science, I doubt that the results would be absolutely conclusive (not everything is as straightforward as 1+1).

Actually, I find ending of the 'All about the Mormons' episode of South park to be pretty appropriate:
Gary: "Okay, so maybe us Mormons do believe in stories that make no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if he made it up, because I follow what the church teaches now, such as love my family, be nice, and help people; and even though a lot of people in this town may think that's stupid, I still choose to believe it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls." (Gary walks off, leaving Stan and his friends stunned)

[ajbrun]

I don't understand the argument for the supposed correlation between religion and morality. For starters, like you said, there have been many wars fought on the basis of religion. We all know that, so I won't bother going into that any further.

My other points to do with this are specifically christian as this is the religion I know most about. I'm sure there will be parallels with other religions also. I think the most obvious reasons that religion does not give people morality, is to look before religion a religion was created. Before god supposedly gave Moses the 10 commandments, are we supposed to believe that everyone went about killing and stealing? I somehow think not.

Lastly, as I'm sure you're well aware, there are many instances of killing in the bible. Many of which, were supposedly sanctioned by god himself. I don't have quotes to hand, but I am sure there is stuff about stoning homosexuals/non-believers/people who work on the sabbeth etc etc. To me, this doesn't sound like a very moral god. In fact, together with flooding the whole world and the possible prospect of an eternal hell, it sounds much more like a vengeful god than anything else.

Therefore, although the general 'advise' of the bible could be seen as very good, I believe that much of its content is not. This is why I think the moral values contained within many religions should be taught (as fact) without most of the content.

To summarise, you don't need religion to be a good person .

[yamangman]

You know in some cases I don't think it would be a bad idea for some of the kids to become religious.

Might stop your kid getting shot one day..or your house burgled.. your wife raped. Sorry to get graphic...

Yes I agree with this 100%. Religion completely removes the inherited bad from eveybody, and makes them good.