Petition: Abolish faith schools (UK) |

[staffsMike]

huh?

Faith has no religion.. simple as that.

You can have faith in your own beliefs.. you can have faith that you will pass an exam, that your surgery goes well. It's nothing to do with religion imo.

[joshwa]

Joshua, I like how you ignored my point about fringe religions.

Do I take it from that post you are happy for your money to be spent on a FSM school or a school of scientology?

(disclaimer: I don't know what a FSM school is - my internets not working properly so I can't look it up).

It's not my money though is it. I pay taxes, it gets spread out to pay for the NHS, Council, Schools, etc etc. It all gets put in a big pot with say 10% going to schools. 0.1% of that might go to some dodgy school that I don't agree with. But 1% of society really likes that school and wants to go there. This means the government is doing their job, they are being inclusive, and tolerant to all walks of society.

Another way of looking at is that it's their taxes that are paying for their school. They pay the goverment taxes, and get a school that suits them, they choose to use that school, whereas I choose a school that suits me (lets just say I choose a CofE "faith" school - not that it's likely to be any different to a secular school anyway), and in effect my taxes pay for the school I use.

At the end of the day, if there were enough scientology people to warrant a scientology school, then why shouldn't the government use the taxes from the scientology people to fund a school that the scientology people will go to. The school would have to follow the national curriculum ANYWAY, so is it really such a big deal? (and the rest of society: police, social services, nhs etc would look after the welfare of the children, and shut it down if there were any issues etc).

Does it really warrant a petition to ban / abolish faith schools? This petition is exclusive, and intolerant, it says, "No, you shouldn't have a Catholic / Muslim / Jewish / Sikh school"... it says you should all be the same, it says you shouldn't have religion in schools, 4 or 5 billion people in the world are religious, it's a part of their lives, but it should be excluded from their education?

You have a choice whether or not you send your children to a faith school or a secular school, they will get RE whichever one they go to, this petition would rather you didn't have a choice...

And just because you don't have faith, doesn't mean faith schools shouldn't exist. I don't have any Linux machines in my house, I don't believe* in Linux, does that mean I should create a petition against Linux, or government spending on Linux? I don't believe in Evolution (although do admit it's a good explanation for the question "how the hell did we suddenly get to where we are today?") but does that mean I should start a petition seeking the ban of the teaching of evolution (as fact) in schools? (it normally is presented as fact from my recolection of school education).

Faith schools serve a purpose in today's multi-cultural society, by meeting the religious needs and beliefs of that society. Yes there are (state funded) acadamy schools that teach creationism as fact. But that doesn't mean the other 7000 CofE schools teach it as fact in RE.

* I don't believe in it as a suitable desktop OS for the masses for example.

[G4Z]

How can they make an objective decision if they never take a single class on it? haha

Perhaps a happy medium needs to be found.

Well in my view, they can make an objective decision when they are 16 and leave school. That way they should have enough critical thinking skills to look into it for themselves and decide. Its no coincidence that religious types like to get them young, after all that is the formative years where people are most suggestable. If these religions really stack up and make so much sense, why is that such a scary prospect for them?

Is it perhaps because when they are too old to fall for simple indoctrination techniques the likelihood is that they will see if for the rubbish that it is?

[staffsMike]

Lucio makes an interesting point. I can't remember ever hearing about creationism in a sceince lab or see it on a test...

RE is where i was taught creationism which is where it belongs of course.

the two are seperate and that's the way it is now to my understanding?

If they were trying to teach creationism as science I would have great objection.

[shadowmaster]

Hi all,

I would just like to add my point of view. Sorry if it’s a bit long.

Firstly in regard to abolishing STATE faith schools. I can understand why this may annoy people. After all we pay taxes and we should not really have to partly pay for these schools especially when we are not of the same faith. However I don’t think you can say that all faith schools try to preach their particular faith to their students. I have a couple of Christian and Jewish state funded schools near me that take students from various religious backgrounds and from what I have seen and heard they do not preach their religion do their students- albeit they do put more emphasis on the teaching of their religion then others. I have talked to past Muslim/Hindu students from these schools and they have told me they were not preached at, and in fact they enjoyed their time there.

For me it depends more on the school ethic and how the school is run, I am sure you get some faith schools that only teach and try to indoctrinate their religion on their students, which is wrong and should not be allowed. But I cannot say for sure that all faith schools I like this.

If you ask me should faith schools be banned- I can honestly say I don’t know, I don’t see it happening any time soon, but I don’t think we can conclusively say faith schools are one of the main reasons for causing ‘ethnic segregation and tension’.

Let’s move onto private school faith schools. Well in my opinion that’s the parents’ choice, if they want send their children there and pay for it then that’s fine with me. It the same with independent/private schools, we cannot stop this.

However it seems to me that one of the main issues surrounding faith schools is that they teach some form of creationism as a fact.

‘Creationism and other religious myths should not be taught as fact.’

I agree …..

I also believe agree with this-

‘Darwinism and evolution should not be taught as fact.’

The last time I checked it was a scientific theory. I really don’t know how you categorically say that it is a fact. Almost everyday, science is changing and what were once ‘facts’ are now no longer valid, so how can you say it’s a fact, I don’t know. That is the beauty of science- it is ever-changing.

However lets use some logic, evolution basically states everything happened by chance (if I am wrong please correct me). Let’s forget the image of the ape slowly becoming man, and let’s start from the beginning, and ask ourselves where did a single cell come from?

Many processes that the cell performs are very complicated and scientists have yet to full grasp them. For example respiration- this in the case if anyone does not know is the process that a cell does to convert glucose to energy which the body can use.. Now forget the simple text book equation ‘glucose + o2 = energy +co2+water. It’s not as simple as that. It involves long and intricate processes such as - glycolysis, Krebs cycle, and finally the electron transport chain. You can read up on these on wiki, or you can Google them, and you will see that they are not simple.

I could go on about similar processes that occur in the cell, and we would be here all day. But can you say for sure that this happened by chance, in other words random atoms collided together to form a highly organised cell? Did the computer you have happen by chance? What are the chances of that happening?

I am not saying it is impossible that evolution caused this, or that creationism is the only way this happened. That’s not my argument but my point is that do we have the right to teach kids Darwinism as a fact and creationism as a myth? Ask yourself. In my opinion both should be taught as theories, in all schools- including faith schools.

We should show children both sides of spectrum and let them make their own choice. Whatever they decide to believe, it will be because they saw all the options and made their own choice. If we just teach Darwinism or evolution to children as a fact, then are we not as bad as those faith schools that only teach their religion as a fact?

[staffsMike]

Well in my view, they can make an objective decision when they are 16 and leave school. That way they should have enough critical thinking skills to look into it for themselves and decide. Its no coincidence that religious types like to get them young, after all that is the formative years where people are most suggestable. If these religions really stack up and make so much sense, why is that such a scary prospect for them?

Is it perhaps because when they are too old to fall for simple indoctrination techniques the likelihood is that they will see if for the rubbish that it is?

RE is not about turning kids into religious followers.. it's about educating them about all major religions.

They get to (or got to) choose at 14 whether they continue to study it in GCSE's which i'm sure most don't anyway.

Why should they be denied the education up to that point.

Most kids would tell you they didn't want to learn sceince if they had the choice..but you make them anyway.. why is that any different?

[Agent]

Faith has no religion.. simple as that.

You can have faith in your own beliefs.. you can have faith that you will pass an exam, that your surgery goes well. It's nothing to do with religion imo.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, but the "faith has no particular religious context" didn't to me.
'Faith' certainly does have a religious context:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion

So saying that I have no faith, means I have no belief in god.

[joshwa]

I think the petition has solely come about because of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanue...ols_Foundation

And not all the other Faith schools (CofE, Catholic etc).

[Kezzer]

Yay, another thread sparking religious controversy.

It's okay guys, this time WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO GET SOMEWHERE. I PROMISE.

*goes back to bed*

[staffsMike]

I should have explained myself better but still I don't think that faith has to tie in with religion or a God just a feeling or your ideals.

The word as you've referenced does mean just that..it's just my taking on the word.

[ajbrun]

Equally evolution shouldn't be taught as fact...

No, but it is backed up by piles of scientific evidence, which is the main difference between science and religion. If science found enough evidence to show there is evidence for the existence of God, or even to disprove the big bang theory or evolution, then I am certain it would be able to alter it's views accordingly. I cannot ever see religion making the same sacrifice, no matter how much evidence is presented.

What do they want? Do faith schools (ie CoE, Catholic) not teach RE covering all major religions?

My view is that religion should be taught, but not as fact. Therefore, you should be able to understand what others believe, but it should not be shown as fact in order to conflict with established scientific theories with the evidence to back them up. I understand that the petition is probably going a bit far when it says "prohibit the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools", but we all know that religious teaching isn't going to be banned any time soon, so it's only really worth discussing banning the teaching of religion as fact imo.

And my response is taking things to the extreme - but surely there are religious parents out there that WANT to have their children in "Faith" schools for a purpose - why deny them of that choice?

I agree, there ARE parents who want their children to have their children in faith schools for a purpose (I can only assume to be further indoctrinated into that particular faith). I am also sure there are parents somewhere who want their children to believe that people from other races/sexualities/sexes etc are evil. Would you mind if they sent them to a racist school (assuming one existed)? Should it not be up to the child to decide what they believe?

Creationism maybe doesn't belong is a Science lab..but who here is actually qualified to say that?

As above. There is far more evidence towards evolution than there is for creationism. Science is taught with evidence. When there is enough evidence to support creationism, then that is the point when it should reach the classroom.

just teaching science is plain wrong. Religion is a horrible device to which some of the most horrible wars were caused but perhaps is each side could appriciate and tolerate other beliefs it wouldn't cause wars.

Science is not a belief in the same way as religion is a belief. As I have already said, science has stacks of evidence which supports all of its accepted theories. Nothing can be declared scientific, and therefore taught as science in a science class if it doesn't have the evidence to back it up. Nothing can just be "believed", and therefore be science.

If you ask me, they're right to teach it and if you have a particular faith why not attend a school which represents it.

Did you honestly know what you believed what you were 5 years old, and ready to attend school? Were you able to make up your own mind with regards to religious beliefs, and therefore choose a school that suited them?

Final question. Are you educated enough to know the difference between a muslim and a terrorist? Because we all know that a lot of people aren't.

I think most people are discussing the realistic issue of prohibiting teaching religion as fact, rather than the slightly more unrealistic issue of banning the teaching of religion all together. It's fine to explain what people believe, but teaching it as fact is a completely different matter.

My main "beef" with the petition is...

- You should have a choice where you send your children - the petition aims to remove choice. "Abolish faith schools". All faith schools? (Even private faith schools? - the petition doesn't specify - but lets assume they're just talking about goverment funded schools...)

Again, why? Why should children be taught to believe in the same religion as their parents? I know it's obviously not as bad, but I'm sure comparisons can be made between this, and the teaching of terrorism to children in some countries. Are those children to young to make up their own minds? I'm sure they are.

- The government should provide / cater to society. (If 5% is jewish, then 5% of education system should cater for that, 72% of britain say they are "Christian" - why shouldn't the government cater to that?)..

Apart from the obvious issue of teaching dubious "facts" to young impressionable children, why should ANY of the tax payers money go towards funding a theory such as creationism, which has no scientific evidence associated with it (please tell me if I'm wrong) at all?

Joshua, I like how you ignored my point about fringe religions.

Do I take it from that post you are happy for your money to be spent on a FSM school or a school of scientology?

Another hypothetical question I'd like to pose (not for G4Z obviously ): Assuming you (as a christian) have a child, then at age 4/5, that child somehow decides that he/she would like to become a muslim, would you seek out a muslim faith school for them to attend, as opposed to the christian one you were planning on sending them to? Remember, this child has expressed a DESIRE to become part of this religion. Would you agree, and support them in finding a school of their choosing, or would you oppose their decision citing evidence to show that they are actually too young to make such a decision for themselves?


EDIT - sorry Josh, should all be fixed now .

[joshwa]

and it all seems to have been blown out of proportion according to this:

"Critics have voiced concern over the promotion in these schools of doctrines such as creationism and the condemnation of homosexuality. However, in an interview with the BBC Today Programme,[6] broadcast 15th April 2006, Sir Peter denied holding fundamental creationist beliefs stating, "I believe that God created the earth and created man in his own image, quite how long it took him I don't know". He claimed to exert no influence over the curriculum of the schools he sponsors beyond insisting on a "Christian ethos" and that he would be concerned if creationism was taught as fact in his schools. Vardy complained that a comment made 5 years ago in which he intended to convey only a belief in a "creator God" rather than a literal belief in the Bible creation stories, had been mis-interpreted and blown out of proportion by the media."

ps - ajbrun - i think you've put my name next to some quotes that i didn't say but it doesn't matter.

[G4Z]

Josh, as much as I respect you as a fellow folder (bit of a pimp there for the folding team ) i just cannot see your logic here.

(disclaimer: I don't know what a FSM school is - my internets not working properly so I can't look it up).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

It's not my money though is it. I pay taxes, it gets spread out to pay for the NHS, Council, Schools, etc etc. It all gets put in a big pot with say 10% going to schools. 0.1% of that might go to some dodgy school that I don't agree with. But 1% of society really likes that school and wants to go there. This means the government is doing their job, they are being inclusive, and tolerant to all walks of society.

You are making an assumption that education should cater for faith which I cannot agree with. If you want to learn about faith go to church, school is for creating good little consumers that hopefully have some sort of basic language and practical skills so they can join the workforce. If you must expose your kids to religion (which I certainly do not agree with and think it should be viewed as child abuse) , then you can pay for it. Why should the state provide that? It is not the intended purpose of education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education

Care to point out (or find a better source than wiki) where it mentions teaching religion in that?

Also, you think its ok for a Scientology school to be paid for by the government? seriously? Do you have any idea what those people are like? The government is not there to be inclusive of every crazy theory and babysit religious institutions.

Does it really warrant a petition to ban / abolish faith schools? This petition is exclusive, and intolerant, it says, "No, you shouldn't have a Catholic / Muslim / Jewish / Sikh school"... it says you should all be the same, it says you shouldn't have religion in schools, 4 or 5 billion people in the world are religious, it's a part of their lives, but it should be excluded from their education?

You have a choice whether or not you send your children to a faith school or a secular school, they will get RE whichever one they go to, this petition would rather you didn't have a choice...

The petition is about banning state funding for state schools not banning faith schools, as I have said before if you want to pay for it go ahead but I sure as hell do not want to see my tax money wasted like that.

And just because you don't have faith, doesn't mean faith schools shouldn't exist. I don't have any Linux machines in my house, I don't believe* in Linux, does that mean I should create a petition against Linux, or government spending on Linux? I don't believe in Evolution (although do admit it's a good explanation for the question "how the hell did we suddenly get to where we are today?") but does that mean I should start a petition seeking the ban of the teaching of evolution (as fact) in schools? (it normally is presented as fact from my recolection of school education).

Faith schools serve a purpose in today's multi-cultural society, by meeting the religious needs and beliefs of that society. Yes there are (state) acadamy schools that teach creationism as fact. But that doesn't mean the other 7000 CofE schools teach it as fact in RE.

* I don't believe in it as a suitable desktop OS for the masses for example.

Really not sure what you are going on about here, its not about me having faith or not. Its about what is real and what is mythology, I do not want to see our young people being indoctrinated in any way, School should be about developing critical thinking and learning how to evaluate evidence, Church (temple, whatever) is for mythology, the fact that religious types (the evangelicals mainly) are pushing these creationist ideas in schools demonstrates the obvious agenda of trying to indoctrinate our young people.

[G4Z]

and it all seems to have been blown out of proportion according to this:

"Critics have voiced concern over the promotion in these schools of doctrines such as creationism and the condemnation of homosexuality. However, in an interview with the BBC Today Programme,[6] broadcast 15th April 2006, Sir Peter denied holding fundamental creationist beliefs stating, "I believe that God created the earth and created man in his own image, quite how long it took him I don't know". He claimed to exert no influence over the curriculum of the schools he sponsors beyond insisting on a "Christian ethos" and that he would be concerned if creationism was taught as fact in his schools. Vardy complained that a comment made 5 years ago in which he intended to convey only a belief in a "creator God" rather than a literal belief in the Bible creation stories, had been mis-interpreted and blown out of proportion by the media."

ps - ajbrun - i think you've put my name next to some quotes that i didn't say but it doesn't matter.

il answer that really quicky. One of those schools is up the road from me. i saw the interview with Vardy. He admitted he was a creationist, I saw interviews with kids that had left that school and they talked about how creationism was pushed all the time as a 'valid theory'. Fortunately those kids saw throught it and didn't succumb. Peter Vardy is scum.

[staffsMike]

You know in some cases I don't think it would be a bad idea for some of the kids to become religious.

Might stop your kid getting shot one day..or your house burgled.. your wife raped. Sorry to get graphic but we all know what kind of people are out there and if religion can turn these nasty individuals good then all to the better...I think we can all agree that they don't do these things in the name of any religions lol

This is getting a bit tired now so i'm out. Nice to argue with you all

everyone's making valid points according to their own particular beliefs (oh no he didnt ) so no answers will be found here.

[TooNice]

Those parents should be locked up. Poor kids.
Forced into being brain washed from an early age, into believing what their parents do (which they probably inherited for their own parents).

That's harsh. I am sure that most parents would like their children to share the same values as themselves, whilst wishing all the best for their kids. They may believe that some of the core values taught by certain religions are a good thing, and may wish for their kid to pick those up too. In doing so, they will inevitably 'rob' the children of certain choices. In that sense, it is no different from a science oriented person trying to teach their kid maths that are several years ahead of what is taught in school (as long as it is humanly done), or parents with preference for classical music putting their child through classical music listening and studies (which, in retrorespect, may be useless 30 years down the line when the child becomes a brain surgeon instead).

Now it's true that you can teach many of the positive core values in religions without the religion. It does make it easier to segregate the values I consider less positive, or perhaps neutral and should be left to the individual to decide when they are older. Yet I do not find it impossible that a person (i.e. the parents in this case) find that devotion to a religion has aided them in making aided them in some way through difficult times, and find that their religion, as a 'package', offers far more positive values than otherwise. Incidentally, I also think that pushing your faith on a child too much can also backfire especially when they reach their rebellious years. So I'd say it's hit or miss there.