Fuddam, A Few Moments Of Your Time Please.

[fuddam]

ok, will look at your questions again later tonight. adios for now

[Stewart]

Zak, you close the thread, then if God wishes Fuddam to spread his word, he can reopen the thread.

[schmunk]

Zak, you close the thread, then if God wishes Fuddam to spread his word, he can reopen the thread.

[fuddam]

And you think the christian church (as well as any other religion) shouldn't/wouldn't seek publicity and acceptance for the 'great feats' brought about by its god and members?

Christian church generally doesn't, I'd say. A different agenda, which I outlined.

What better way to silence and convert the naysayers than to show them a proven miracle; real scientific evidence that a twisted foot was instantly uncurled by the power of god? Would that not help tremendously in bringing god's word to the vast majority of the world's population who don't belive in the trinity?

God's not in the business of *proving* His existence. If He was, don't you think He'd broadcast it in neon across the skies? lol. I'm tempted to mention another caution in scripture about broadcasting stuff, but I won't because it will be misinterpreted. On some occasions He *has* done stuff in front of skeptics (eg Moses and the snake/s, Elijah and the fire etc) but not common to do so. Is also not an area we can put Him to the test.

If you're really serious about your pursuit of bringing God's word to the world, you'd show us some undeniable and plausible proof of his existence, not sit on a forum making easy statements.

like I said..........

So Christians don't get ill then? Or they do, but get better almost straight away, as soon as God gets around to it?

not at all. There is no guarantee that a Christian will be healed. USUALLY it happens to non-Christians more than Christians, because they want an obvious sign, but am not one to question when He heals a Christian. In any case, Christ has called us to a life of (temporary) suffering, not pleasure and hedonism.

Are you suggesting that medical practitioners should forget their wealth of medical knowledge developed over centuries of careful study and simply pray to God for their patients to heal? Should they abandon the techniques and medicines that have been time-and-again proven to treat or even cure almost all of the world's illnesses and injuries and instead trust God to find a cure in his good time? Should we be stopping research into the treatment of currently incurable diseases, such as Cancer and HIV, even though several tests are showing promising results which indicate that a preventive or cure is not far away, because God's miracles are the only way we'll see a cure?

Of course not. God doesn't expect us to sit on our collective butt and do nothing. He gave us intelligence, talents etc, and He expects us to use them to glorify Him and for the service of humankind. Only problem is that human abilities are flawed /fall short, so sometimes God does the supernatural.

[Koolpc]

"Stewart sits, in the nude, unshaven, infront of his pc. A miracle has happened right before his eyes. He was struck dumb (Thats a miracle in itself!! lol) as he noticed that he had just found the missing link in himself!!!

[Stewart]

Very witty.

I think thats the sort of stuff Fuddam and Zak were on about though... best keep the level of discussion a tad higher than pictures of monkies if there is any point keeping the thread open.

[Koolpc]

Well, just a little humour to lighten the journey. No hard feelings mate.

[TeePee]

Of course not. God doesn't expect us to sit on our collective butt and do nothing. He gave us intelligence, talents etc, and He expects us to use them to glorify Him and for the service of humankind. Only problem is that human abilities are flawed /fall short, so sometimes God does the supernatural.

To be honest, this is far worse an insult than any monkey picture. The idea that everything you've ever achieved, everything you've ever worked for isn't your achievement, but your gods.

I'm a very goal-oriented person, driven to achievement. There is nothing that could be more depressing than to have my life decided for me by a god so that nothing is the product of my own labours. I am this way not because a god made me this way, but as a product of my childhood and education. I am the person I choose to be, with the talents I have chosen.

It's no wonder so many christians need to be saved from depression.

[fuddam]

To be honest, this is far worse an insult than any monkey picture. The idea that everything you've ever achieved, everything you've ever worked for isn't your achievement, but your gods.

that isn't what I said.

the point is this: you have certain abilities, and how you use them / ignore them is up to you. If you want to focus on self, and how great you are, and what wonderful things you have done, that's your perogative. The Christian motivation is to GIVE, since in giving, one experiences far more pleasure than taking, and anything one does that focuses on self will turn to dust in the long run. Ozymandias springs to mind.

We are called to serve God (since we all serve something, whether we admit it or not), in thankfulness for the far greater rewards He has given us than we can ever repay. A relationship with Christ is one of love, and what more does one want to do in love than GIVE to the object of one's love?

I'm a very goal-oriented person, driven to achievement. There is nothing that could be more depressing than to have my life decided for me by a god so that nothing is the product of my own labours. I am this way not because a god made me this way, but as a product of my childhood and education. I am the person I choose to be, with the talents I have chosen.

You chose your talents, eh? Interesting. Did you pick from a range in the shop? And when did you do so? In the womb?

God created you, and placed you with specific parents for a reason, within a certain context. How you choose to exercise your available choices is up to you. At the end of your life, you can either have that edifice standing in the lonely sands, or build on the purpose that God has set uniquely for you, that ultimately brings more love to the world, and glory to Him.

the awesome thing is, with Him one can accomplish far greater things than one could do without. Help more, give more, feed more, love more, earn more, enjoy more.

[Whiternoise]

I would be disappointed if it was closed, i've tried to keep it pretty civil, but it's going to happen if you try a religious debate. It's a large generalisation, but it generally goes like this:

1. Atheist/Religious person posts a question or challenge to atheist/religious person

2. Opposition posts a response that is polite but doesn't quite satisfy the other person

3. Continue like this for a while

4. The existence of God is refuted, miracles are questioned and the Bible is argued to not make any sense. These arguments are discarded due to (simplified a bit) the God argument

5. The atheists then pose arguments that this is all silly and bunk because God doesn't exist and thus all the religious claims are bunk - a reasonable route of conclusion if one doesn't believe

6. These arguments go round in circles for a while

7. It becomes clear that one side firmly believe in God and that it's no use asking "well how do you explain X" because the answer is clearly "X is a function of God and not necessarily explainable". The other side firmly thinks that it's all hocus pocus and that if it can't be explained by hard science then it will be one day and so ner.

8. Whilst both sides try to reassure that they're not trying to convert each other to their relevant beliefs and that they're just trying to go nicely about slamming each other, tension rises and inevitably the conversation gets a bit out of hand.

9. Skip to 100 years later and either one party is sitting up in Heaven (joined by deathbed converters) saying "i told you so", or the entire lot of us are in Hell for being bad people and not following everything to the letter, or we're all simply dead and that's the end of it..

And so it goes

But back to serious discussion.

You chose your talents, eh? Interesting. Did you pick from a range in the shop? And when did you do so? In the womb?

A little sarcastic there methinks If you have some respect for medical science, then it probably was in the womb mostly. It all depends on factors like what the mother's lifestyle was, what emotional triggers you were given as a child and so forth. Think of it this way, a very underweight baby is not likely to make the olympic running team. It depends a lot on how your brain works too. If you go in for this sort of thing, it's clear that some people are NATURALLY better at some things than others. I for instance suck at drawing, i've never been that good at it no matter how much practice i put in. Some of my friends are much better, they can do a lot better with a lot less practice. It depends also on your definition of talents really, some things are inherent and some can be learned. Others depend on when you decided to take them up, languages and music are purported to be easier to learn at a young age. You've also got to consider the environment, there are so many little factors that can change how you are as a person.

Do you believe in fate, Fuddam? (not in a sarcy way, but out of curiosity) Since a lot of religious folks seem to subscribe to God having a Plan for all of us, so would you ever think that your life has been predetermined from the start?

It seems that you subscribe to a modified form of the quote "You can't change what cards you're dealt, but it's up to you how to play the hand". Which is pretty sound to me, although obviously i'd say it was chance rather than His will. But of course this leads to the question of Karma. Why would God willingly put some people in better situations than others? Some people who are born into Christian households are arguably more likely to want to do good than someone born in a mansion with their life served up to them on a platter. Why should you have easier or harder choices in life before you've even had a chance to prove what you're worth?

And i'm sorry, but there are plenty of people who have lived full, enriching lives, bringing joy to the world without believing in God. Take Randy Pausch for example, an agnostic (at least he was never public about it) to be fair, but he certainly brought a lot of love into the world without being overtly having help from God.

The trouble with your last comment is that the obvious critics answer is "Placebo". If you think God's helping you then you're likely to perform better because of it. An atheists argument could be that "belief" is a placebo in its own right.

[fuddam]

A little sarcastic there methinks

you're right - not required, i kno. My apologies to TeePee.

If you have some respect for medical science, then it probably was in the womb mostly. It all depends on factors like what the mother's lifestyle was, what emotional triggers you were given as a child and so forth. Think of it this way, a very underweight baby is not likely to make the olympic running team. It depends a lot on how your brain works too. If you go in for this sort of thing, it's clear that some people are NATURALLY better at some things than others. I for instance suck at drawing, i've never been that good at it no matter how much practice i put in. Some of my friends are much better, they can do a lot better with a lot less practice. It depends also on your definition of talents really, some things are inherent and some can be learned. Others depend on when you decided to take them up, languages and music are purported to be easier to learn at a young age. You've also got to consider the environment, there are so many little factors that can change how you are as a person.

all agreed

Do you believe in fate, Fuddam? (not in a sarcy way, but out of curiosity) Since a lot of religious folks seem to subscribe to God having a Plan for all of us, so would you ever think that your life has been predetermined from the start?

certainly not in any Hollywood way.
The Christian POV is that God creates each person unique, for a specific purpose, that no-one alse can fulfill, and it's up to us whether we fulfill it or ignore it.

It seems that you subscribe to a modified form of the quote "You can't change what cards you're dealt, but it's up to you how to play the hand".

yep

But of course this leads to the question of Karma. Why would God willingly put some people in better situations than others? Some people who are born into Christian households are arguably more likely to want to do good than someone born in a mansion with their life served up to them on a platter. Why should you have easier or harder choices in life before you've even had a chance to prove what you're worth?

in a nutshell, I don't know that there are better situations. More comfortable situations, yes, but not necessarily better. Since my POV is that God knows what He is doing, is enough for me. Mine not to reason why (since He hasn't told me and doesn't need to) but am exceedingly thankful for the countless blessings He has poured on me, and that He is just, and that He doesn't want ANYONE to reject Him.

Karma doesn't come into it, because that concept is about reaping what one sows, whereas Christianity says 1) there isn't reincarnation and 2) none of us deserve anything good, based on our sinful nature, original sin etc.

And i'm sorry, but there are plenty of people who have lived full, enriching lives, bringing joy to the world without believing in God. Take Randy Pausch for example, an agnostic (at least he was never public about it) to be fair, but he certainly brought a lot of love into the world without being overtly having help from God.

agreed that many people do much good without knowing God, but my point is that God has so much *better* planned for each individual than we can accomplish without His help (over and above filling the hole within each person).

The trouble with your last comment is that the obvious critics answer is "Placebo". If you think God's helping you then you're likely to perform better because of it. An atheists argument could be that "belief" is a placebo in its own right.

we all believe something

I'll say this much: I live a life, to the atheist outsider, of the most uncanny coincidences & good fortune. If someone was to do a Big Brother on my every minute, they'd think someone is cooking the books. Beyond plausibility. Am not talking about material good fortune, by the way.

The point about TeePee's last post is that he wants to do the best within the limits he observes (ie no afterlife) whereas my existence is aimed completely at the afterlife (aside from my lapses into sin).

I heard an interesting statement from someone recently (paraphrased):

The current world, in all its confusion, chaos, suffering and pain, is the best world anyone who rejects Christ will experience, while that same world is the very worst that anyone who accepts Him will experience.

So many of the arguments about evil, suffering, pain etc cease to hold water if one considers our current existence only to be a practise/training session/warm-up.

[Whiternoise]

So why only ~100 years if the afterlife is forever?

Seems a bit short! I mean it's a long time, but compared to infinity it's like comparing a second to a lifetime.

[iranu]

To say that god gives children gifts is to deny genetics and the science that allows us to determine, and if possible treat, inherited diseases (and of course other social sciences that deal with personality). I doubt that these two children will fulfil the gifts given to them by god.

Soon they will take part in vital research in America in the hope of providing a lifeline to future generations of Niemann-Pick type C (NPC) victims – the official name for juvenile dementia.

But their parents are also preparing themselves for the nightmare of watching their children develop the onset of the illness.

Firstly, they will start to become clumsy, falling over and their memories will start to fade. This will be followed by their sudden inability to walk, talk or feed themselves.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-children.html

I watched my grandmother's sad demise due to Alzheimer's, which is god given if you believe that people's qualities and traits are determined by the all mighty, and it was an horrific experience. To see someone lose their personality and dignity in that fashion is heartbreaking and I hope we find a cure. The article shows CHILDREN who will go through this process. So why if this is god given are these children going to be denied the chance to show and develop their qualities? These children may have gone on to do great things much later in life; kind Christian things, but nope they're going to suffer great indignity with no chance of survival. Medicine will look for a cure for this genetic, god given condition, perhaps if they went to a Christian faith healer he could cure them just like the beggars club foot.

If god does predefine people and produces people with such terrible diseases then what are their specific purposes and how do they fulfil them? How can these poor people exersize their god given free will when they have such severe dementia? Can they ignore or choose to fulfil this purpose when they are in such a state of dementia?

I'm sorry but I do get a little hett-up when people espouse the greatness of god, say how great things are for them and admit they do not know god's motives and yet ignore all the sh*tty things that happen to people through absolutely no fault of their own.

If we did put a big brother camera on you and found that god was influencing events or whatever then how can you claim free will? If you are just feeling great and you subscribe that to god without evidence then you are exhibiting nothing more than the well established scientifically proven Placebo effect.

[TeePee]

Talents and skills are learnt, either by concious act or as the product of childhood development. Some people are better at some things in very broad terms (like men being better at spatioal awareness tasks than women, generally) as a product of evolution or genetics.

Again, it must be so depressing for christians treating life as just a test for an 'afterlife' and 'none of us deserve anything good'. Far better to live a good life and enjoy it!

And when I die, and if your god happens to be the only one of hundreds of thousands of possibilities, our conversation would go a little like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68

[Koolpc]

Life could be one big learning curve. You live a life, learn, die and live again to learn more things until you reach a level where you have accomplished what every human is set.: Peace, Love, Thanksgiving, friendship etc? Who knows.

I will post on here when i pass over and let you lot know!!

[TeePee]

I thought you were christian? Earthly reincarnation doesn't sit well with those folks. Nor does peace, love, etc. The only task christians are set is belief in their god. The rest is irrelevent to the test.