ID Statistics and Info kept on yourself

[Gunbuster]

RVF500: Agreed
Do any other political parties support the above measures?
I will boycott them and Labor at the next election. Although here in Fife people are so blindly pro-Labor (I'm not against the party just the current policies) Tony Blair could personally shoot all the Fifers in the leg and their MPs would still get voted in.

[Rave]

The Lib Dems and the SNP are both against ID cards. The Conservatives (as I understand it) have not directly opposed the plans but they have reservations about them.

RVF, the situation reminds me more of '1984'. I find the manipulation of the populace with dire threats of terror, the general disinformation spread by most of the popular press, and the intention of the government to control every aspect of our lives genuinely disturbing.

Rich :¬)

[RVF500]

I agree, it is genuinely disturbing. Agreed on '1984' too, the proliferation of a fake war televised to the masses to engender hatred of an imaginary foe. Well at least we have a real foe. A couple of old men cowering in a cave in Pakistan.

Ok, these old men have shown a willingness to send followers to carry out some pretty drastic events. But let's not forget. Our own home grown terror organisations managed some pretty spectacular events. A lorry bomb in the centre of London, a bomb at Canary wharf, a mortar attack on 10 Downing street among others. In fact 3 direct attacks on government that I can recall off the top of my head. But despite all of this I don't recall a need for the measures now being attempted. Though Sinn Fein were given an office in Parliament overlooking the spot where they murdered Airey Neave. Nice touch huh? Must give Adams and McGuiness a warm feeling every time they look out of the office.

So how come 30 years of IRA terrorism, along with the failed policy of internment and trial without jury, didn't impress upon us the need to have national security measures foisted upon us? Yet a spectacular in New York and Madrid does. Removal of the problem at source is more effective than monitoring the population. Unless of course removal of the problem isn't the real agenda.

Gunbuster; my ardent hope is that your fellow Fifers react strongly to the harsh treatment of theh Scottish regiments and make a point by voting SNP. I wouldn't dare to suggest you vote tory (even though that is my own political thrust) as I doubt that there is much following in that neck of the woods. Even if we can't oust the Blairs from power if we can at least reduce their power base to a marginal government it will be a start.

Sorry Rave, I'm far too right wing to vote Lib Dem. Some of my harder line views would put me directly in opposition to their outlook. And we both know how hard line I can be in some areas Voting SNP this far South would be like throwing a spring roll to a blue whale. So I'll plump for the tories and hope that we can dislodge the local labour bod (actually we may be Lib Dem here).

Right, I'm off to start another thread to have a pop at Blunkie

[Rave]

<rubs hands gleefully> Let's go!

Rich :¬)

[Vanishme]

F**CK THE GOVERMENT; IM NOT BEING TRACKED LIKE SOME ANIMAL SO THEY CAN KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ME; WHERE I GO; WHO I KNOW; RIGHT DOWN TO HOW MUCH I SPEND EVERYDAY; I HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE FREE AND SO WHAT I WANT WITHOUT ANYONE LEANING OVER MY SHOULDER; IF I HAVENT DONE ANYTHING LEAVE ME ALONE AND QUIT ASSUMING EVERYONE IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.

[RVF500]

I'm voting Guy Fawkes ressurectionist this time around. If they don't exist then I'll form them. Kick off the next parliamentry session with a bang.

[rajagra]

Console yourself with the fact that biometrics are generally crap:
The first widely accepted scientific method of identification was called anthropometry and was developed by Alphonse Bertillon.
"What doomed the Bertillon system was disturbing proof of its fallibility. While processing a new prisoner, a clerk at Leavenworth State Prison was sure he’d measured him before. As it turned out, another prisoner, already incarcerated at Leavenworth, had the same name, and also the same measurements."

Personally, I don't even believe that DNA evidence is as safe as they make out. It seems to be based on the assumption that the individual DNA bands that make up the patterns are independently random. I've never seen any proof - or even a claim - that they are statistically independent.

[Akumu]

Removal of the problem at source is more effective than monitoring the population. Unless of course removal of the problem isn't the real agenda.

Indeed... Surely, the only way to have a society completely free of terrorism or whatever, is a totalitarian state where nobody has any freedom whatsoever... In the meantime, removing freedoms in the name of greater security is surely only going to increase dissatisfaction and hatred, making the world less secure... Makes you wonder what the agenda really is...

[G4Z]

I must say I am in total agrement with RVF and Rave here like, I also heard on the news that there will be a £2000+ fine for not registering for an ID card or not informing them of a change of address. The funny thing was as RVF said it was "slipped in" there, now I saw it on BBC and I think they have been super careful not to have another repeat of the David Kelly affair and they really did just slip it in without any analysis or critics, I wonder how it was presented on Channel 4?

I personaly hope that Blunkett falls over this Visa thing for his married lover tbh, best thing all round. Not only do I think he is a genuine idiot who is out of touch with reality but I think he is the epitomie (sp?) of a big brother totalitarian socialist which is how I would probably describe Hitler come to think of it, and Im also sure the first few things he did was to set up his own "FBI" the SS, and then he set about persecuting minorities.... sound familiar?

(maybe a bit OTT... but I dont care, bring on the Blunkett bashing thread)

[Pete]

i agree fight the power guys

rave you are a total anarchist man, you are solid stuff

what about freezing them to like -150 degrees, i mean cool a glass sheet to that temp, then place you prints on there, they should get stuck then i dunno rip them off or soemthing?

just an idea
still
carry on with the refuse and resist policy rave
Pete

[Daymonkey]

F**CK THE GOVERMENT; IM NOT BEING TRACKED LIKE SOME ANIMAL SO THEY CAN KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT ME; WHERE I GO; WHO I KNOW; RIGHT DOWN TO HOW MUCH I SPEND EVERYDAY; I HAVE A RIGHT TO LIVE FREE AND SO WHAT I WANT WITHOUT ANYONE LEANING OVER MY SHOULDER; IF I HAVENT DONE ANYTHING LEAVE ME ALONE AND QUIT ASSUMING EVERYONE IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.

This is just going over the top, you sound really sad tbh

I dont see why you wouldent want the goverment to scan you, as long as your not doing anything dodgy im sure it would be ok

[Rave]

i agree fight the power guys

rave you are a total anarchist man, you are solid stuff

But no, that's just it. I believe in the rule of law and the idea of government. I don't believe that humans can prosper without an organised social system. Edit: I'm a civil servant for goodness sake, I work for the government.

I just won't be forced to present myself for cataloguing at the government's behest. If they want to criminalise me for doing nothing, then fine. They will have taken the fight to me, and if they think I won't fight back, they are wrong. The day they come to arrest me for not presenting myself for identification, is the day I consider myself to have been disenfranchised.

Rich :¬)

[RVF500]

I did start a Blunkett bashing thread but it wasn't that well thought out and was quietly pulled a few days later. There were a few points I thought worthy of discussion not just from Blunkett's point of view but from a moral standpoint as well, Blunkett being merely a vehicle for that debate. But it didn't go anywhere. Anyway. The point of this post. I inferred that I believe he is obsessive possessive and given such a trait is not the best man to be heading up the massive centralisation and eroding of freedoms that he is currently. I noted in the media this week that the press too are beginning to tout this trait and are openly calling him possessive.

As for stupid. Well, dictating to a biographer that you regard the party you represent as weak and inefficient while still in power. Idiot I think you called him rave? I couldn't agree more. I hope he falls and takes the whole rotten mass with him. Perhaps we can look forward to retaining little things like our freedoms and sovriegnty.

A democratic state means that we are vulnerable to terrorist threats as they can move about with the same freedoms. The answer is strict control and highly intrusive policing. Is the price of being a virtual prisoner in your own land worth the security that we are told we need. But do we really need it?

[G4Z]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4093583.stm

Just to kick things off again, looks like the Tories are going to back it so there is a fair chance this will now go through.

I am disapointed to see this because the Tories are the opposition and I am sick of seeing them aggree or only half oppose anything the govt brings to the table, to vote labour is mad, to vote Tory is sheer lunacy tbh.

[Rave]

<shrugs> The Tories are useless anyway. Screw it, I'm up for the fight. Let the government criminalise me for doing nothing, see where it gets them.

Rich :¬)

[G4Z]

Rave, I dunno what you think you can really achive anyway, have you ever tried just not paying your council tax?

They just increase the amount of money you owe them, I reckon they will just fine people continually and then take them to court if they dont sign up.

I am not sure anything but a Lib dem victory at election time is gonna stop it, and they dont have much of a chance tbh because of the "wasted vote" mentality that the 2 main parties just love us all to belive.