ID Statistics and Info kept on yourself

[Rave]

But may I ask, WHY is it so bad for you that your info is held on a database? It already is held in all different places all over tha world, you info is probably stored on loads of computers, so why is one more such a problem?

I'm not trying to start anything, but I just really wanna understand why you're SO opposed to it that you're prepared to try and remove your personal identification, i.e. your fingerprints which are unique to you.

Because (as I'm pretty sure I stated in a previous ID card thread) it fundamentally changes the balance of power between citizens and the government. At the moment, as long as I pay my taxes and don't do anything that harms or disadvantages other people, the government can't compel me to do anything, I can live my life completely unmolested. That is the way a democracy should operate IMO. I will not be compelled to present myself to be catalogued just because some politicians have decided that they want me to.

Second, I do believe that ID cards have enormous potential for making a citizen's life difficult. What if you accidentally splash some acid in your eye and on your finger? Until they've healed you can't prove who you are via an iris or fingerprint scan. Until then, how do you get on an aeroplane, or claim your benefits, or get hospital treatment, etc. etc.? What if someone manages to clone your card and steal your identity? What if you're a member of an ethnic minority? The police will have another tool with which to unncessarily harrass you (to add to 'stop and search' powers).

Aside from my simple objection that ID cards are the thin edge of the totalitarian wedge (the reason why I will never have one), the practical objections are numerous.

Rich :¬)

[SilentDeath]

Umm, yeah, lets all try and kill ourselves. Then the government CAN'T hold any info on their little database about you.....

And I shall kill myself how?
I know the safety aspects of working with high voltage (among other things like acid, toxic powders, liquid nitrogen and very hot objects - all part of my job).

And you will find when you die, they hold quite a bit more about you...

Ive had a go at my right index finger. Not exactly sure which parts to burn but Ive changed it enough to give a much different print.

[TeePee]

Hey Rave, did you know thw government has seekrit microphones built in to every smoke detector sold? They're watching you!

[Allen]

And I shall kill myself how?
I know the safety aspects of working with high voltage (among other things like acid, toxic powders, liquid nitrogen and very hot objects - all part of my job).

And you will find when you die, they hold quite a bit more about you...

Ive had a go at my right index finger. Not exactly sure which parts to burn but Ive changed it enough to give a much different print.

Apologies, I should've added [sarcasm] and [/sarcasm] to that post...

[M@rco]

Hehehe, I can't believe that you are actually talking about doing something like this, let alone seriously thinking about it! All that just to try and prove a point to people who aren't gonna care?

Personally, I think ID cards will be great, as long as it's done correctly! It should reduce credit/identity fraud, benefit fraud, illegal immigrants and therefore should benefit us all in the long run. Wether it will or not is a different question though.

All this nonsense talk about infringement of civil liberties, hahaha, sorry, but hahahaha! I wish I had a better memory, but I'm sure there are other coutries who have to carry ID cards, and there was proof that they worked. Can't remember which country though. Am too tired right now to bother to look.

Oh, when you hack off your fingertips, or dip them into acid or whatever, get some pics up so I can laugh some more...

Italians have to carry ID cards.

[jammeing]

Superglue would do the job. Just coat your fingertips before you go in for a scan and voila! Dodgy prints...

[jammeing]

Zak Edit: nope...you dont keep asking this stuff fella.....outta order

[jammeing]

blanked by Zak

[jammeing]

More Deleting by Zakky

[fathazza]

sounds to me like someone wants to commit a crime ^^^^

[G4Z]

Rave mate, Im with you on this one mate.

I will also be doing everyting possible to avoid getting an ID card, I think the first place to start is not with removing your prints mate, its simply to get your driving licence up to date and your passport renewed BEFORE they require you to get an ID card with it, and then just sit it out. If after 10 years we still have a govt who wants to pursue this Il just move to europe or sommat.

no bother.


Also, totally agree that its the thin end of the wedge, I am also a professional white male so I dont have a lot to fear from this either, but If I dont like the idea at all I dread to think what our communities of "ethnic minoritys" think about it.

On a side not - to the people who actually like this idea, you do realise this has all been thought up by David "totalitarian" blunkett dont you? the man responsible for our new anti terror laws that have managed to arrest several hundred people and hold them for an indeffinate time before releasing them with no charges under the terrorism act. Of course they managed to pin other offences on some of them and blunkett thinks that makes it alright, but to be honest that just sounds like the police were on a bit of a fishing trip there.

Also another point you should consider, this 3Bn pounds number, that is how much it will cost the PUBLIC just to buy one of the damn things, as they are looking at charging £75 for an ID card but I think if you go for the passport as well you get the oh so special deal of both for £85, oh wow how lucky are we????

[Rave]

I think the first place to start is not with removing your prints mate, its simply to get your driving licence up to date and your passport renewed BEFORE they require you to get an ID card with it, and then just sit it out. If after 10 years we still have a govt who wants to pursue this Il just move to europe or sommat.

no bother.

Yeah, that's definately good advice, and that's what I'll be doing. At some point though the plan is to make them compulsory, so at that point I'll either have to present myself for cataloging or face a punishment of some sort. If that involves being arrested, then presumably they'll fingerprint me anyway, hence the desire to have them dealt with by that point.

Moving to Europe is another possibility; although many countries do have ID cards, in general carrying them is not compulsory and they're not backed up by an enormous big-brother database.

Rich :¬)

[Paul Adams]

Moving to Europe is another possibility; although many countries do have ID cards, in general carrying them is not compulsory and they're not backed up by an enormous big-brother database.

Carrying them is (still) not part of the proposal from Blunkett is it?

And surely there has to be a database behind any national ID system?

There sure is in Sweden, and has been for years - I got my ID card a couple of weeks ago so now I can finally use my credit card everywhere (lots of places require "legitimation" when paying by card and a passport is not considered ID).

I can also buy booze without fear of being turned away for looking too young and spry (yeah right!) - you have to be able to prove you are 20 or over to buy even lager stronger than 3.5%.

The only biometric data currently is your photograph on the card, and everyone gets a "personal number" based on their date of birth and 4 magic numbers - these are unique, are required to sign up for pretty much any service and can be checked quickly to verify the name & address of the holder.

Heck, they've even used chip & PIN cards for a decade here, in the rare event you have to sign for something it is never checked against the strip on the card as there is no point - it's easily faked.

(I used to deal with EFT systems and know how the banks track their cards and usage too, they know more than you might think )

Identity theft is unheard of here, and duplicate or falsified ID card applications are virtually non-existant - remember without the actual registration process even if you fake a card it won't authenticate properly if you try to use it as ID.

[Gunbuster]

My gut reaction is noooooo!

However one way it could be could is taking my information away from companies.
Currently if I have to prove I'm good for a loan, CC, working with Kids or just buying a software license etc I have to give that company a lot of info. If I had a ID card number the government could just say he's pukka and they don't have to know who family is, my wage, etc. The key being I use it when I want to protect my information, not when the government asks me to produce it.

Blunkett though sounds like he wants to get us to prove who we are left, right and center to stop those nasty asylum seekers (boo hiss) and terrorists. I'm sorry, but thats just stupid. Its solving the effect not the cause. Whilst there is still big business in trafficing people, ways will found to fake IDs etc and exploit the trafficed people. The criminals need to be shut down first. The next thing to do is sort out our borders and those of the rest of europe. Maybe catching some terrorists should be a priority rather than starting random wars. Finishing the job in hand should be the priority rather than opening yourself up to another front of attack. Also leaving warlords still in charge in Afghanistan, not a good idea, you'd think the 'war' bit in their titles might be a give away.

[Rave]

Carrying them is (still) not part of the proposal from Blunkett is it?

No. But there's nothing to stop it becoming a requirement, save for a promise from the government. And we all know how much they are worth.

And surely there has to be a database behind any national ID system?

There sure is in Sweden, and has been for years - I got my ID card a couple of weeks ago so now I can finally use my credit card everywhere (lots of places require "legitimation" when paying by card and a passport is not considered ID).

Yeah, but Britain isn't Sweden. Swedes seem happy to accept taxation of 50%+ of GDP and massive state intervention in many areas of life (alcohol sales for eaxmple), but I doubt the majority of Britons are keen on the idea. I'm a (moderate) socialist, but I really dislike the idea of a nanny state, and I wouldn't want to move to Sweden as a result. If it suits you then good, I'm glad that people have the chance to move to countries that suit them better, but it's not for me.

The only biometric data currently is your photograph on the card, and everyone gets a "personal number" based on their date of birth and 4 magic numbers - these are unique, are required to sign up for pretty much any service and can be checked quickly to verify the name & address of the holder.

Well, that's not as bad as the system they're proposing here, but I still wouldn't be keen. If the government introduced an ID card system like that here I'd still campaign against it, but I'd accept one if they were introduced.

Heck, they've even used chip & PIN cards for a decade here, in the rare event you have to sign for something it is never checked against the strip on the card as there is no point - it's easily faked.

Chip and PIN is an excellent idea. At the end of the day if I had any objections, I could pay by cash. Credit/Debit cards are optional, whereas an ID card isn't.

(I used to deal with EFT systems and know how the banks track their cards and usage too, they know more than you might think )

Well, there's a potential privacy issue there in that a bank account is pretty much compulsory nowadays if you want to get paid or receive benefits, but at the end of the day there's nothing to stop you going to the bank on the first day of every months and drawing all your wages out in cash. Not much they can learn about you from that. Again I say- using a card is optional, and there are easy alternatives.

Identity theft is unheard of here, and duplicate or falsified ID card applications are virtually non-existant - remember without the actual registration process even if you fake a card it won't authenticate properly if you try to use it as ID.

Well, a database like that would still be costly to set up, IMO so costly that it wouldn't be justified by the benefits, but since all it involves is a photo of the user and a PIN number for them to remember, it's not such a gross invasion of privacy as the UK government scheme. Also how do you know that falsified applications are unheard of? It might be that there are plenty which they don't manage to catch.

Rich :¬)

Edit: as a side note, this week the Spectator has come out against ID cards. Looks like I'm in good company

[RVF500]

It's not often rave and I see eye to eye. On this discussion we are finding some equilibrium.

Carrying an ID card in essence I have no problem with. I carried one most of my adult life anyway and found it to be very handy to prove my identity from time to time. However, that ID only held my photo, my name, date of birth and army number. Hardly what you would call intrusive. I host of biometric data I find both unneccesary and intrusive. Chip and PIN would be a good safeguard, kinda belt and braces. Finger prints, home address, iris scans, numerous other records. Why? Slipped into the news last night on the back of the latest ID card promotion was the little snippet of a £2500 fine for not telling government that you have moved home. WTF?!?!?!?!?!?! OK, now alarm bells are really ringing. A law abiding citizen has to inform the government of their every move? Tell me how this can benefit the population at large?

Let's recap. The Queens speech aka Tone's ventriloquism act. 37 new bills including trial without jury. Intrusion by officials into our homes to check that we haven't spoken harshly to the family dog or disciplined our children. Compulsory ID cards (which we will pay for). Creation of our own FBI, an organisation that is heavily used in political 'crime' in the US. Use of phone taps. Bans on food advertising and smoking (what will be banned next, free speech? Nope, aready banned). Reform of the house of Lords, which stinks of moves to remove as many obstacles to government policy as they can. Which is ultimately removal of democratic process. Now we have potential criminalization through not informing central government of our every move. Nanny state? don't make me laugh. Police state headed by a politburo more like.

ID cards bad? In principle no. Implemented in this way, worse than bad. Should we allow them in a moderated format? No, as this would merely pave the way for 'improvements' over time. This government has proven itself to be untrustworthy in every way. When Orwell wrote 'Animal farm' I bet he never thought he would be writing about Great Britain.