those london floods? for Christians only

[TeePee]

'Proof' is an absolute.

In terms of evidence, we have a whole ton supporting the idea that Jesus didn't exist, for example, and none supporting his existence. But it's not conclusive.

But that's a man making claims, the concept of 'God', a supernatural entity, defies proof, because proof is a scientific term, it must be quantifiable, and the supernatural by it's nature cannot be quantified.

Scientific ideals and religion cannot co-exist as has previously been discussed.

[EvilWeevil]

There's no disproof of god either, that's the tricky part.

No disproof should be required for something that is not observed

No scientific theory is truly proven, and it stands as assumed fact until disproven. However, accepted scientific theories are based on factual observations and evidence, and thus can be disproved through factual observations and evidence.

The belief that God exists is based on no factual observations or evidence - so the argument that there is no disproof merely highlights the fact that their is no evidence. In the same way that we cannot disprove that dragons, fairies or magic do not exist.

[G4Z]

Fuddam, you accept that the earth is round, do you accept that it orbits around the sun, no doubt you accept the fact that this solar system is on of billions in a galaxy of billions?

If you accept these ideas its because they are supported by a mountain of evidence and is infinitely more obvious to a modern human with our mountain of aquired knowledge than to a bronze age man. Why is it that you can accept these 'facts' ( i.e accepted scientific theory supported by evidence ) but deny that humans evolve ( and indeed evolved from apes ). These ideas are both supported by volumes of evidence, yet you choose to believe a many times translated account from bronze age 'religious men' with an agenda (i.e control of the population ) ?

[Stewart]

G4Z, you are talking to a man who accepts completely a virgin birth, a man rising from the dead, and the various other fairy tales that make up the stories in the Bible.

If you can accept that mush at face value, then I suppose you can pick and choose.

Isnt there something in the Bible about the Earth being 6000 years old? We now KNOW the Earth is billions of years old. I'm sure there is some dodgy cop out that God botherers can use to get around this akward truth though.

Denying evolution and claiming a magical entity in the sky made everything, in this day and age, is nothing short of a mental illness.

I bet even the Pope knows its all bull really, but he keeps quiet because he gets to wear a big hat and go in a bulletproof car.

EDIT - "Leviticus 20:13 - 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

Thats a direct quote from God , on the record, MTV unplugged stylee.

I do hope you support the death sentance for homosexuals Fuddy, if not you are no more a Christian than I am.

[TeePee]

The idea of a virgin birth isn't even in the bible. It comes from a mistranslation. The bible really says 'Young Woman'. It's all just fairytales built on nonsense.

[directhex]

G4Z, you are talking to a man who accepts completely a virgin birth, a man rising from the dead, and the various other fairy tales that make up the stories in the Bible.

If you can accept that mush at face value, then I suppose you can pick and choose.

Isnt there something in the Bible about the Earth being 6000 years old? We now KNOW the Earth is billions of years old. I'm sure there is some dodgy cop out that God botherers can use to get around this akward truth though.

Denying evolution and claiming a magical entity in the sky made everything, in this day and age, is nothing short of a mental illness.

I bet even the Pope knows its all bull really, but he keeps quiet because he gets to wear a big hat and go in a bulletproof car.

EDIT - "Leviticus 20:13 - 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

Thats a direct quote from God , on the record, MTV unplugged stylee.

I do hope you support the death sentance for homosexuals Fuddy, if not you are no more a Christian than I am.

technically the bible is the word of man, not god - where the men got those words from is supposedly divine, but there wasn't a deity sat there spelling things out on a per-word basis

if you must pick "funny" chunks of leviticus (and there are hundreds, try leviticus 11:9-12 or 19:19

[Stewart]

God told man, man wrote it down with whatever people used to write things down before pencils were invented. Good enough for me.

Kill homosexuals or you renounce the word of God and will burn for all time in... ... ... ... ... TEH FLAMES OF HELL!

What other conclusion can you draw? Harsh, but then I don't follow the teachings of the Bible, some do. Let us hear their opinions \ reasons for ignoring the big fella.

[JPreston]

Everyone always goes on about that one verse about killing homosexuals, but we all know that's not what the true message of the bible is about.

No, the true message is contained in the six (!) verses about killing 'he that pisseth against the wall':

1Sa 25:22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that [pertain] to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1Sa 25:34 ....surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall...

1Ki 16:11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, [that] he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends... ( I mean that's pretty unequivocal, isn't it?)

1Ki 21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall....

2Ki 9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall...

so....god hates stained brickwork?

@ fuddam, assuming the Rapture hasn't happened and you are still around can you please answer my sincere questions on page 3 please? Ta.

[JPreston]

Erm...fuddam...not sure how to break this to you but I'm afraid when I was leafing through Deuteronomy earlier I found the following:

18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

See - technically - because your prediction didn't 'come to pass' in the strict sense of the word, you know we're all still here and that....well that sort of makes you a 'false prophet'......yeeaaaaahh....so strictly speaking we should probably stone you to death now.

Yeah, pretty sure that's what it says...

[Butcher]

Yeah, false prophets should be put to death: http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...s/dt13_01.html

[JPreston]

As it happens I found the Brick Testamount for the first time tonight.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the.../dt23_01a.html

It's both hilarious, and the literal truth

[fuddam]

You don't have faith, you are scared of death. You can't accept your own mortality, so you buy into any old half baked nonsense, no matter how far fetched and insulting to the intelligence, no matter how utterly disproven, so long as it allows you to kid yourself that death is not the end.

nope, not afraid of death. Hoping for a non-gruesome end, but assume that applies to everyone.

Have faced death a few times, must admit, and have usually found myself laughing. No, not a flippant remark. I didn't want to die, and wasn't laughing in the face of it in a devil-may-care fashion, but was laughing because of the PROFOUND sense of peace that enveloped me. Can recall 2 major instances of that happening in partic. Was incredible, though the other people who witnessed those happenings thought I was nuts (of course).

you think death is scary? If you really want to freak out, meditate on eternity. THAT is a terrifying concept, from a human POV. Can say that, despite being a Christian. My comfort is that I know God, and so can trust His version is better than mine.

[fuddam]

When someone dies, say an elderly relative of someone at your church or whatever you call it, do you all exhibit what I would call 'normal' behaviour i.e. consoling the bereaved, grieving and wailing, being solemn or do you all jump around shaking tambourines because they are in heaven now? I presume you do in fact act solemn - but can you explain why this is? I mean going to heaven a week early has got to be at least ten times better than spending that week in hospital with arthritis and MRSA hasn't it?

it is human to grieve. I am human.

I would be consoled if I knew that person to have accepted Christ, but nonetheless I would grieve the loss as much as anyone.

but I would not grieve eternally.

Another one: would you say that you were always so - ahem - 'single-minded', having been brought up that way since infancy, or did something trigger it later in life? What about most 'like-minded' people in your experience?

I was born into a Christian family, but became a Christian one night, at the age of 11, when I made the choice for myself. I had gone to church beforehand, and had believed, but that had not made me a Christian. Am now 38.

Studied philosophy, psychology, linguistics, literature at uni. A year of law too.

most of my close friends (eg 20+ years) made the choice in their teens, some before, some later. Most are uni post graduates, ie they have had to reason an argument before.

Can pretty much say, AFAIK, all chose because the reality of Christ became undeniable to them. They could not deny his existence. Myself too.

Would also say, with some assurance, none have blind faith. None believe simply because someone told them to do so. You could reply that such a perception is simply wish fulfillment, not reality. Well, I can't deny what YOU experience, just as you cannot deny what I experience. You can only speculate.

remember, as you have heard from many christians no doubt, it is a relationship. One can't have a relationship if it is not 2 way. you can't marry someone who is absent.

Either we are all deluded / simple / blind / pig ignorant / fearful, or we are intelligent beings, capable of rational thought, who have weighed the evidence and found in favour of God.

[fuddam]

Yea. That is insane isn't it? I can think of millions of people who claim to be devoutly religous, but indeed, as you say, display a severe lacking of the tenents of their religion. Oh many may scream and shout that they do, and may even outwardly appear to do so, but blummin heck so many do not. Of course such a stark phenomenon dosn't need thourough explanation if you're religious, does it.

no, is simple. we are all hypocrites. believers, atheists & agnostics alike. we are human.

Is exactly why Christ got mad at the money lenders in the temple, why he rejected the pharisees etc.

but he still loves us. all of us. freaky.

[fuddam]

Ooh another question: apart from posting here, did you tell anyone face to face that you thought the flood in London was going to be another Deluge/Armageddon/whatever you call it? If you did - I presume they have similar religious views to yourself - what did they say, did they strongly agree, agree, neither agree or disagree, disagree or strongly disagree?

I viewed the possiblity with healthy scepticism, since many people make many claims. At the same time, I could not simply dismiss it, so I had a look at the evidence for and against.

in the end, I went to work in the lower basement of a corporate building on the south bank of the Thames, for the due dates.
I kept an eye on the windows high up, at pavement level.

Did I mention it to people? yes.

Did I say something was def going to happen? No

Did I preach? No. Not necessary.

Did I say they should be aware that something might happen? Well, I posted in this forum for a start, but I also mentioned it to the people I was working with.

After all, my only strong motivation not to mention it was selfishness / fear, and I try to fight that.

[yamangman]

So i'm either deluded/simple/blind/pig ignorant/fearful because I don't believe in God. Don't you find it funny that most atheists have exactly the same opinion of the devout/religion subscriber?

If that's not what you meant, please let me know.

I have to say plain and simple that i'm not usually one for bare-faced, unveiled remarks, but you are a fool fuddam, an utter nut, and you make me smile.